The Project Pad

Dont be a pussy. Lets see that thing slidin sideways in the snow.

Quattro-JC wrote:Dont be a pussy. Lets see that thing slidin sideways in the snow.

nope... not me... no sliding in this one... turbobattlewagen on the other hand...

man, you are too sweet to dear Rubi. Still have never seen a good pull out of her, even dating back to h20 2011.

These arrived today... Thanks to Chris (loxxrider)... Ordered on Monday Night, FID called Tuesday right after they were modified to let me know that my set was finished and how they turned out, Tracking info same day for next day delivery, the NewEngland weather intercepted it by a day... Got them an hour ago today Thursday... Thanks again Chris, we'll report back on how easy these are to tune for forums members to know... Now where's Rob (roortube)?

rob is here. We're doing some intake pipe mods right now for him. come on up.

this thing fkn done yet?

Nope... not completely anyhow... it is being reluctantly daily'd though... took her out on Rob's trip up to EFI with hopes of having injectors delivered and installed in order to join him on the dyno for "35r on pump" comparisons. Unfortunately neither happened which is fine by me as I really wouldn't wanna rush things. At this stage of the game everything is 95% done and running up to snuff as is, aside from a now permanent AirBag light and an overboost issue Rob & I were experiencing on the way back home. Mechanically, it could very well be 100% done if I were to stay with pump gas overall.


However since I'm not staying pump, some minor fueling hardware is still needed to go the eventual path of e85 (fuel lines, rail, regulator,content analyzer)

Recent activities that have happened include:
Installing FID 1200cc Injectors
Smoothed out my VEMS tune (basically started from scratch on my VE table and Idle Settings)
Fixed my torn Wastegate reference boost line

In slightly more catastrophic news:
This is my engine covered in fuel after 15 gallons of it sprayed all over it...

Culprit



Overboosting 33psi spikes, exposed a possible weakness in the fuel system by pushing back the seal I was concerned about in my previous post. I much rather believe it was my install over sight by not double checking proper seating of the seal, than think that it'll be a reoccurring situation when I intentionally am tuned at 32+ on e85. I pulled it all apart, used more lube and re-installed them all... Only to then find a swollen 2.0t coil.
It must of been soaked in fuel and then expanded with temps... anyhow it's all taken care of.

So for now I'm just enjoying her at a "wastegate spring only" like 19psi on pump while I continue to tweak idle on these bigger injectors. Vems is reporting 40% Injector Duty Cycle @7000rpm with the upgrade as opposed to 91% on my 630cc Dekas so plenty of headroom on that front.
Logs indicate what looks like 3500rpm spool before the gate opens on my current base map. I'll take that as a good sign that should only improve with Boost PID tweaks (which I'm learning to play with)...

Highlighted is 4200-6500 in popular B5S4 FATS fashion... (I don't know why I keep measuring something so irrelevant in this platform, specially when it currently takes like 5 seconds!)... I'll attach a log for those wanting more info...

Nice Ob, thanks for the update Glad you got all the niggles sorted. Hopefully that popping injector doesn't come back. You were at 91% at what boost level? The highest I saw was around 84% but that was on 3bar not 4bar as you're running in the S6. I want your turbo.

234kpa on spring pressure, lol. I was finally making that on my 30r and it was like, a big deal. Can't WAIT to retune with the .82 and hit 250+kpa! 350whp+ here I come!!!!!!

Gonna check out your log.

chaloux wrote:You were at 91% at what boost level? The highest I saw was around 84% but that was on 3bar not 4bar as you're running in the S6.

91% at 7600rpm when I was getting those pesky "sec trig errors" I was trying to diagnose last year until I gave up... boost was up around 26psi mark... but remember that duty cycle is a direct product of how I needed to adjust my VE Table to keep my AFR in check. In other words, my turbo might be blowing more air than yours so more fuel would need to be dialed in to compensate. So it's tough to make a good comparison, I think...

chaloux wrote: I want your turbo.

I happen to have one available...

chaloux wrote:234kpa on spring pressure, lol. I was finally making that on my 30r and it was like, a big deal. Can't WAIT to retune with the .82 and hit 250+kpa! 350whp+ here I come!!!!!!
Gonna check out your log.

that 234kpa is not all spring, as I had turned boost down as bit when I remapped my tune... I just bumped it down to keep things together until dyno time... oh and this is on .64 a/r, my .82 is tucked away in the trunk in it's PTE box waiting for the day I hop on the dyno and hit DET...

4th Gear Log Attached

Oh for sure on the turbo difference/more air for same boost. I get that. Just seeing how far these injectors will go on pump and at 4 bar. I should be pretty close to the safe limit when boost gets up there on the 30r.

And also... what!? Spare turbo?! Honestly, don't even message me... Lol

chaloux wrote:And also... what!? Spare turbo?! Honestly, don't even message me... Lol

I'm afraid to even message you now that you're soooo close to completing your car... On another note it does already come with a .84 hotside ...
Hint: we both commented on the for sale post, it is not my spare turbo but it IS still available. Spoke to the seller couple weeks back, said it's collecting dust...



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Ugh.

The kkk option is cheap for the precisions too.

Ok I'm done. Can't do it. Turning brain off on the idea

Oh man, scary seeing that big fuel leak... Looks like it wasn't properly seated though as you said. Always throw some oil or fuel on them before installing! It shouldn't happen again. Hope you're enjoying them otherwise!

^^what Chris said. It doesn't matter if you hit 33psi or 99psi, the injector shouldn't have popped out like that.

It does NOT appear that those injectors are tall enough to safely run with the OE rail. The o-rings look like they're barely into the cups in the fuel rail, they should be seated all the way at the top of that cup.

This here is fully seated and is as seated to the top of the cup as possible...






The only remedy seems to be better sized hats or o-rings... The slippery slope could also mandate an aftermarket rail that might fit lower than the stock one... or could just be install error on my part (my bets are on that)

Yes, that photo is fully seated, however the photo above with the rail installed is NOT fully seated. The injectors are shorter than OE injectors, it is a common problem. Once they are fully seated into the intake manifold, they pull out of the rail. A properly fitted fuel rail is the best solution, but in the meantime, you can:

-Cut the mounting tabs off of your fuel rail and weld them back on in the correct location
-Or, modify the seats for the mounting tabs on the intake manifold so the rail sits lower

EDIGREG wrote:-Or, modify the seats for the mounting tabs on the intake manifold so the rail sits lower

I did something minor along these lines,... I bent the mounting tabs a bit as to have them create a bit more down force once I bolt it down... we'll see how it holds, I guess...

On the hunt for rail options,... never ending slope slip, smh

Did you get a chance to measure them o-ring to o-ring vs the stock injectors or what you had in there before? They look about right in the picture... I can see if there are hats that might fit better, but I don't really think they should be wrong. The stock height is pretty standard unless I'm mistaken.

Dirty update papi

In the mean time "While you are dailying" the shadytree answer would be to use some zipties or lobster rubber bands to apply a bit more downward pressure. It's hoodrat, but yeah... always here to give you bad workable ideas

Hey, I just talked to Tom and we discussed all the possibilities. We were both under the impression that these cars came with the pretty much industry standard injector height, but maybe not...

I'd like to know if you can push the injectors up any higher in the rail with lubricated o-rings. If so, then you should be able to turn the key in the ignition (with the rail installed) to see if they pop down. If so, then we definitely need to address this. I wouldn't drive the car until you have a way to mitigate the problem. Either the rail needs to be spaced down, or you can wait (approx 2 weeks) until Tom gets some re-designed hats made. He'll ship them to you free.

Sorry about this problem... It's weird because I had the exact same injectors in my car with the exact same hats and never had a problem. Maybe I just wasn't boosting high enough! We'll make it right, but please don't risk the car by running these without a solution. Don't run these top hats without having the injector fully seated in the rail (I.E. shoulder of the injector almost line on line with the fuel "cup." You could also try stacking o-rings or some kind of spacer. The problem is that the o-ring is getting pushed down past the groove and the shoulder on the hat is too low to stop the o-ring from popping out of the cup in the rail.

FWIW, my FIC2150's are not the same as stock height. Mine were not as bad as OB's appear from these photos, and I never had one pop out or leak, but they could move enough that it definitely made me uncomfortable running them with the stock rail. You could grab the middle of the injector where the hat meets the first o-ring and "bend" the injector side to side. Now with the custom rail they are solidly bolted down, no chance for movement at all.

Ed, where do you see a mismatch in height? Looks to me that the o-rings are in exactly the same place as that Siemens 630, and they are designed as such. The discrepancy is the shoulder on the top hat which allows the o-ring to slide down further in the event that it comes unseated from the groove in the hat. The updated hat will place a shoulder just under the o-ring so it acts just like that Siemens 630.

loxxrider wrote:Ed, where do you see a mismatch in height? Looks to me that the o-rings are in exactly the same place as that Siemens 630, and they are designed as such. The discrepancy is the shoulder on the top hat which allows the o-ring to slide down further in the event that it comes unseated from the groove in the hat. The updated hat will place a shoulder just under the o-ring so it acts just like that Siemens 630.

The photo above doesn't show any concrete information regarding the length of the injectors. Not only is the photo taken at an angle where perspective comes into play significantly, but the cap is on one end of the FID injector and there is no telling if that injector is fully compressed, meaning the injector body is fully seated into both the top and bottom hats.

I also had no issues with the Siemens 630 injectors in a stock fuel rail, so theoretically these *should* also be fine if they are indeed the same height. But even if that is the case, then both injectors are shorter than the stock injectors. Not to mention these are 3-piece injectors so they can bend/flex, effectively becoming shorter and increasing the chance of the o-ring slipping. It's very clear in the photo below that the o-ring is barely inserted into the OE rail.

Making the modification to the hats you mentioned above certainly won't hurt, but that is not the root of the problem here. The o-ring coming out of that groove is due to either 1) being installed incorrectly, or more likely 2) the fact that the o-ring is not fully compressed because it is not inserted far enough into the cup (or, a combination of both). If you truly want to have these injectors fit in an OE Audi fuel rail, the top hat should be modified to make the injector the same length as the OE unit. I could pop one out of my s6 if you need a measurement, but it would be easier if someone has a spare stock injector on the bench.

There are other variables as well, such as if the plastic injector insert is fully threaded/seated into the intake manifold.

Compare the photo below of before/after the injectors are inserted into the intake manifold. The injector appears to be fully seated into the rail at first, but once it is seated into the IM it slides down, moving the o-ring dangerously close to the tapered/chamfered edge of the cup on the rail.

Even if these are the same height as the Siemens 630, the issue is not evident on those injectors because they have a clip which prevents them from backing out of the fuel rail. (Even then, not ideal because that prevents the injector from being fully seated into the IM - potentially effecting the path of the spray)

I agree with most of what you said Ed, but will wait to comment until we can get an o-ring to o-ring measurement of the stock injectors.