Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

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Karrm
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:14 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by Karrm »

Well I am finally ready to start my own project thread. After lurking for ages, trying to decide the direction to go on a project I never intended on starting lol. I can't believe I have just about had this car for a full year and only driven it for about a couple months of that. I must admit that prior to owning this car I had a fox body Mustang and after selling that I got into BMWs. I had never owned a VAG vehicle and I came into this rather blind as far as common problems, best sources for parts, best upgrade routes, and really didn't even know where to begin. I really wish I knew about forums such as this from the beginning, but live and learn.

I ended up getting carried away writing this story. Feel free to skip past all this nonsense to the build section below. I won't think any less of you.

Let me give a bit of back story. Back in 2013 I read the article on Jalopnik "Cars that time forgot" featuring the Audi 200, I think that may have been one of the first things I heard about these cars. Everything about these seemed pretty cool, this sort of gets into what a friend and I have determined to be the best daily driver recipe. A daily driver needs to be fairly large to hold friends and/or family; it needs to have some decent power to make it fun to drive; it needs a manual transmission because of course; and it needs AWD for traction in any weather. At the time my daily driver was a 1994 BMW 525i with a 5 speed, it was rock solid but a bit rusty as well as fairly slow/boring so I was always searching online for something to replace it. After a quick search I noticed several 200s for 1-2k in my area, although all of them had seen far better days I decided I needed one if they are that affordable. I managed to stumble upon a few completely by accident while browsing the classifieds. One was a white 200 sedan in the background of a for sale ad for a newer Audi a4, don't ask me how I found it. I sent him a message about it and despite it being way out of my price range ended up having a long chat with him about these cars which just encouraged me to find one for myself.

I gave up the search after a while due to the lack of decent examples. Enter approximately 1 year ago, I was checking eBay for 200s (I didn't find any more local cars after the initial few). There was a newer listing that seemed like an actual nice car, 1991 Audi 200 20v Avant, tons of pictures and some actual details on what had been done. I saw the location in the ad so I pulled up the local craigslist, found the car, and gave the guy a call. Keep in mind this is on the opposite side of the country from me, I wasn't entirely interested, especially for his asking price, however I still really wanted a fairly decent 200 to replace my rust bucket so I was willing to look into it. Over the phone it sounded like the car was in fairly good shape, there were a few fairly minor problems and he just didn’t have the money or time to deal with it. I ended up making him an offer completely blind which he eventually accepted. So I sold the 5 series and got myself a plane ticket.

Let the records show that I have never done anything like this before. I didn’t think airport security would let me through with a compression tester and a full set of wrenches so I ended up bringing very little to help me check out the car. When I got off the plane I realized this guy was pretty much just out of high school. We went over the car and everything seemed as described, some gauges didn’t work, driver’s window didn’t work, oil leaks, etc. The car also felt a bit slower than expected but I chalked it up to the weight of the Avant and called it good. After paying the man I hopped on the highway to head back home. I ended up getting stuck in rush hour traffic and after sitting at a stand still for a while there was smoke pouring out from under the hood. I pulled over and of course the car had puked coolant everywhere. The temp gauge didn’t work so I had no idea it was even overheating until it was too late. I waited for the car to cool down and called the owner, the car was his daily driver so I wasn’t expecting any sort of issues like this. He assured me this had never happened to him before and aside from that didn’t really provide any help.
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After the car cooled down and traffic cleared I hopped back in and made a quick stop to pick up some coolant, I was really hoping I wasn’t stuck with a junk car and no way home. After leaving for a second time I ran into issues on a steep hill, the car seemed to noticeably lose power and was pouring smoke out the exhaust. I pulled over again expecting overheating. I was really starting to lose my mind at this point. I let it cool off again and continued on. Daylight was starting to run out and I had a long way to go so I decided to carry into the night until I made at least a little progress. The first thing I realized was the headlights were terrible. And to say terrible I mean nearly nonexistent. I thought only the running lights were on when I first flipped them on. The second thing I realized was the interior lights did not work. So at night I went from most gauges not working to all gauges unusable. I tried using a light but that didn’t work. After just doing my best to maintain speed I ended up stopping for the night around midnight. I ended up finding a decent hotel and got some sleep.
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When I got going in the morning after a good night’s rest I realized all of the gauges were working and I was no longer in fear of the car overheating or running out of gas. The previous owner had told me in cooler weather the gauges all worked but I didn’t believe it. With a bit of confidence I carried on. Near noon it had warmed up and all but the tach and speedo had died off, so it really was just a case of temperature. I drove all day and into the night, I wanted to cannonball through the night to just make it home as quickly as possible. I was really hoping to rack up some miles before something broke and left me stranded. I ended up getting tired early into the night so I decided I needed to stop and sleep again, this time opting for a cheaper hotel. I found a place that was only 39.99 a night. I had never seen a place quite this terrible, the water smelled awful, the bed was most likely full of bedbugs and used syringes, the floor was uneven and coming apart, and the door didn’t seem trustworthy. I didn’t like it but I left the light and the TV on all night and took my chances. The next morning I was still alive and hadn’t lost any organs so I made the final leg of the trip back home. I feel like it is necessary to mention I was pulled over twice on this trip. I never would have expected it seeing as how I have never been pulled over in any vehicle since my mustang. How is an old Audi station wagon a cop magnet?

After registering the car and all that I decided to check on the overheating. I found that the fan fuse commonly goes out and purchased it from the dealership for around a dollar. At this point I could actually hear the fan kick on so I felt like I had fixed that. After daily driving it for a week or so I decided something was definitely up with the power as well as a bit of a weak initial startup. I started to do research and suspected the fuel pressure regulator but I decided to do a compression test as well. After pulling the first plug I realized I might be in trouble. It was covered in thick buildup, mostly black, with some white spots. All of the plugs ended up looking like this.
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As I started the compression test I couldn’t seem to get the gauge to work on the first cylinder. I ended up giving up and moved on to the others, magically it worked. The other cylinders were around 145 PSI but I couldn’t get even a hint of pressure from cylinder one. Great, time for an engine rebuilt… The cheap daily I just picked up has become the project car already.

Eventually I managed to borrow a cherry picker and stand and got the engine out and torn down.
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One of the exhaust valves in cylinder one had come apart.
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I dropped off the engine fully torn down at a machine shop and called up 034, they were the only relevant performance company I had heard of at the time. After discussing my options I decided I wanted a gt3071 but would need need rods to avoid destroying the motor. The machine shop gave me a call around this time and let me know that I would want to get over sized pistons as my cylinder wall to piston clearance was a bit too high. So I ordered scat rods, JE pistons, coated bearings, ARP main studs, and head studs for the hell of it. I dropped off everything at the machine shop and got a call the next day saying they are the wrong pistons. Turns out they sent me pistons for a stroker.
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After talking with Samuel they got things sorted out for me and I eventually had the correct pistons in hand for the machine shop. About this time I discovered that it would be fairly expensive to make the jump to a 3071 and really just wanted to get the car running, just with more power than the factory k24 7000 could provide. I nearly jumped on doing an rs2 swap with the k24 7200 but ended up deciding the best bang for the buck would be a k24 7400. I'm currently working with Marc Swanson to get a complete kit together to make a 7400 work, hopefully I'll have that in my hands soon. I don't know if it necessarily deserves the "rowdy Audi" title my friends have given it with this tiny turbo but I hope to make the switch to something like a gtx3071 in the future if/when I have the funds for it. For now this should make the car at least a bit more fun to drive.








The Build Begins

Now that I have gotten everything back I have actually started making progress. Ignore the disgusting garage.
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I went ahead and painted the engine block just to make it look a little nicer. I taped off everything just to play it safe, it took much longer than expected to make it look somewhat presentable.
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After that I went to work figuring out the bottom end. Also I didn't notice the shoe sitting on the lawn mower until looking at the pictures now, but it was kind of distracting and I feel like I must mention it... I guess it is my roommate's lol, I have no idea why it is there.
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I haven't ever messed with ARP studs before. Directions say clean threads and hand tighten, I went ahead and did a dry run with the bearings fitted. I was going to use loctite to make sure nothing backs out after a while and wanted to make sure the threads were clean and everything was good to go. One of the studs was much shorter than the others. Once I removed them I noticed it appeared to have about 1cm sheared off.
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So I ended up making basically 0 progress on my first day working on the engine. Hopefully I can actually get something accomplished soon. Maybe I will take a look at the shifter linkage while I wait on the ARP studs.
1990 Mustang GT - sold
1995 BMW 525i - sold
1978 Honda CB500 - sold
1993 BMW 318is - sold
1994 BMW 525i - sold

1994 BMW 325is - autocross bucket and temporary dd
1991 Audi 200 Avant - Unintentional project car extraordinaire
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chaloux
Posts: 3167
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:43 am
Location: Muskoka, Ontario, Canada

Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by chaloux »

Welcome!

Don't throw that stud away! It goes in the one with the oil check valve. Whichever stud stood up a bit is the one you want to put the short stud in.
Matt

18 Silverado 1500 work pig, roof rack and tonneau cover
11 Jetta sedan TDI DSG, rear muffler delete
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES

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chaloux
Posts: 3167
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:43 am
Location: Muskoka, Ontario, Canada

Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by chaloux »

Unless the check valve was removed you may have crushed it if it's all torqued down.
Matt

18 Silverado 1500 work pig, roof rack and tonneau cover
11 Jetta sedan TDI DSG, rear muffler delete
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES

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chaloux
Posts: 3167
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:43 am
Location: Muskoka, Ontario, Canada

Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by chaloux »

And I would avoid loctite, just use their grease.
Matt

18 Silverado 1500 work pig, roof rack and tonneau cover
11 Jetta sedan TDI DSG, rear muffler delete
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES

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Marc
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Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by Marc »

Ah, welcome! I tried calling you back RE: the 7400, hank sez the turbine housing will be getting cut early this week (2/8).

in the future give us a call, we can usually meet or beat 034's prices on engine components and such.
Marc Swanson
Proprietor, EFI Motorsport
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chaloux
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:43 am
Location: Muskoka, Ontario, Canada

Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by chaloux »

And my obligatory +1 for Marc. 034 is my last resort, which can happen here and there. Wouldn't be the first time they've messed up a piston order (shit happens I realize. At least they took care of you. Did you have to pay return shipping though? Lol).
Matt

18 Silverado 1500 work pig, roof rack and tonneau cover
11 Jetta sedan TDI DSG, rear muffler delete
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES

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Karrm
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:14 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by Karrm »

chaloux wrote:Unless the check valve was removed you may have crushed it if it's all torqued down.

That would explain it. I believe the check valve was removed already and I have a new one when I bought all the engine stuff. I'll have to go play around with it in a few hours if it is that simple. I expected it to be user error but I just couldn't find anything about that.

Marc wrote:Ah, welcome! I tried calling you back RE: the 7400, hank sez the turbine housing will be getting cut early this week (2/8).

in the future give us a call, we can usually meet or beat 034's prices on engine components and such.

Hey Marc, sounds good. I would have bought everything from you had I known. Basically 034 was the first company I learned about and it was where the previous owner bought everything. Once I found this place I realized I was doing everything wrong. I've got 034 motor and transmission mounts already.

chaloux wrote:And my obligatory +1 for Marc. 034 is my last resort, which can happen here and there. Wouldn't be the first time they've messed up a piston order (shit happens I realize. At least they took care of you. Did you have to pay return shipping though? Lol).

Yeah I really expected it to happen sadly so I pretty much didn't even react and just called up 034, my machinist was extremely surprised with how calm I was over the screw up. They ended up paying for return shipping and everything so I'm pretty happy with how they handled things even if it did add like a month to the time I've been working on this car.
1990 Mustang GT - sold
1995 BMW 525i - sold
1978 Honda CB500 - sold
1993 BMW 318is - sold
1994 BMW 525i - sold

1994 BMW 325is - autocross bucket and temporary dd
1991 Audi 200 Avant - Unintentional project car extraordinaire
Karrm
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:14 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by Karrm »

OK as it turns out I'm an idiot and already made a nice rookie mistake. Check valve was still in there and got crushed pretty good. I'm going to run over to my machine shop and see what they can do as far as removing it.

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1990 Mustang GT - sold
1995 BMW 525i - sold
1978 Honda CB500 - sold
1993 BMW 318is - sold
1994 BMW 525i - sold

1994 BMW 325is - autocross bucket and temporary dd
1991 Audi 200 Avant - Unintentional project car extraordinaire
User avatar
loxxrider
Posts: 6642
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:46 am
Location: Jupiter, FL / Somewhere, PA

Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by loxxrider »

I love that you haven't given up on this car despite the challenges you've been through with it. It will reward you with being one of the most awesome daily drivers ever!

Keep up the good work,and keep reading and posting here to avoid future bonehead moves ;) we are always happy to help with our knowledge and experience. Just ask if you aren't sure!
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
Karrm
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:14 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by Karrm »

I appreciate the support. Hopefully I can be more careful from now on and avoid breaking anything else lol. I'm having the crushed check valve extracted right now, and I may go ahead and deal with the rods and pistons in the mean time. Any tips or advice? I have heard horror stories of dealing with spiro locks and all that fun stuff. In my last rebuild I used stock rods and pistons so I haven't messed with this stuff myself just yet. I also need to check out the shifter while I have down time, shifting into 5th and reverse is very difficult currently.

Sent from my LG-VS985 using Tapatalk
1990 Mustang GT - sold
1995 BMW 525i - sold
1978 Honda CB500 - sold
1993 BMW 318is - sold
1994 BMW 525i - sold

1994 BMW 325is - autocross bucket and temporary dd
1991 Audi 200 Avant - Unintentional project car extraordinaire
User avatar
PRY4SNO
Posts: 2430
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:14 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by PRY4SNO »

You're on the right path. Keep it up and be sure to post often.
Find me on Instagram @pry4sno

|| 2010 Golf Sportwagen TDI /// #farmenwagen
|| 2002 Dodge Ram 2500 24vt 4x4 #bertancummins
|| 1992 80 quattro 20v /// Eventual AAN'd Winter Sled
|| 1990 Coupe quattro /// Because Racecar
Aktapod
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:51 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by Aktapod »

Great story! It's a shame the car gave you so much trouble from the get-go, but I'm glad you stuck with it! The world needs more sleeper wagons. :)
Kevin (Sven)
- 1991 200 20vt K24-7400 AAN
- 1991 200 20vt Avant K24-7400 VEMS
- 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap + ABZ
- 2002 Audi S8 6-speed swap
- 1979 Audi Fox quattro 20vt
- 2003 RS6 6mt Stage 2
Karrm
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:14 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by Karrm »

Alright, finally got the block back from the machine shop. Crushed check valve has been removed, my machinist said that was one of the most frustrating jobs he has done. I also found out that my check valve I purchased isn't the same as the one that was in there so I need to order the right one. I'm thinking the one I bought isn't even close to what I was trying to buy.
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In the mean time I have been assembling the pistons and rods. This was something that was a bit more confusing than expected due to the lack of markings on the pistons and rods. I assumed the pistons would be going on with the valve reliefs on the intake side for obvious reasons. Just to be sure I looked at the stock pistons, there is an arrow showing the orientation and the reliefs are for the intake valves. The rods I was unsure of however, After doing quite a bit of searching I managed to find a thread about it on motorgeek where they got an official response from scat solving the mystery.
Dear Dana,



As long as the rods are centered on the journals you are good to go. You shouldn’t have any problems.



If I could be of any more assistance please feel free to contact me by email or by phone.


Thank you,
Michael Sutton


With that solved I have just aligned the bearing notches the same way the factory rods were when I removed them, just to keep things uniform. The factory rods had a line on the side facing the front of the engine.
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So this means the notches should go in the intake side.

The machine shop already weighed everything for me but I went ahead and weighed everything again to double check.
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Everything worked out perfectly. The pistons were all the exact same weight. All but one of the rods were the same weight. All but one of the wrist pins were the same weight. So after matching everything up the assemblies should be exactly the same weight as accurate as my equipment can measure anyway.

The clips to secure the wrist pin go in easy enough. It seems like you just press them in with the open end near the slot and they slide right in.
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1990 Mustang GT - sold
1995 BMW 525i - sold
1978 Honda CB500 - sold
1993 BMW 318is - sold
1994 BMW 525i - sold

1994 BMW 325is - autocross bucket and temporary dd
1991 Audi 200 Avant - Unintentional project car extraordinaire
User avatar
chaloux
Posts: 3167
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:43 am
Location: Muskoka, Ontario, Canada

Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by chaloux »

Nice work! Glad we caught that check valve issue before you fired it up, lol
Matt

18 Silverado 1500 work pig, roof rack and tonneau cover
11 Jetta sedan TDI DSG, rear muffler delete
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES

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Karrm
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:14 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by Karrm »

chaloux wrote:Nice work! Glad we caught that check valve issue before you fired it up, lol

So am I, me and the machinist were talking about how much damage that would have caused if it wasn't caught. Saved my bacon on that one.
1990 Mustang GT - sold
1995 BMW 525i - sold
1978 Honda CB500 - sold
1993 BMW 318is - sold
1994 BMW 525i - sold

1994 BMW 325is - autocross bucket and temporary dd
1991 Audi 200 Avant - Unintentional project car extraordinaire
Karrm
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:14 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by Karrm »

I've been busy with work but I finally have a little bit of an update. I have tried to make this thread very detailed for the entire build, show my mistakes in the hopes that it may help some fellow rookies as well as provide a laugh for the experts. I used to be a Mustang guy (forgive me) and there was a fantastic thread I read on a daily basis purely because the guy explained and had pictures of everything, as well as being extremely funny and providing great reading. I haven't been quite that detailed, taken many pictures, nor do I have a sense of humor, however I hope to allow you guys to join me for the wild ride which was my choice to buy a lemon of an Audi 200.

I was at a complete misunderstanding with the oil check valve, and my machinist, skilled though he might be, was no help at all even though he should have seen how simple the solution was lol. Anyway it is out and the new one is in. The head on the original was fairly well stripped but I was able to get it out with some triple square bits my friend had laying around.

I had to completely clean everything about 20 times from it sitting in the dusty garage for a while. After that was done I got working on the bottom end, time to break out the lube.

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I ended up just using the factory main bolts.

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Now breaking loose the rod bolts was a bit of a challenge since I have basically none of the proper tools, equipment, or skill to do an engine build. In this Mustang build thread I mentioned, the guy's solution was to stick a wooden broom handle through the rod and use that to hold the rod still. However that did mar the edges of the bearing surface, so I wanted to avoid that and instead clamp something down on the body of the rod instead. I came up with the most redneck solution that I personally have ever seen, but it worked perfectly. Used a vice to secure the rod to a 2x4 from my corner shelves lol.

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Loosened the bolts just a little before breaking the caps loose to avoid throwing things across the room.

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Threw in the new coated bearings.

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Oil rings are installed.

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Compression rings installed.

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Tapered ring compressors are amazing. I first found out about how great they are from that Mustang build thread and used one in the BMW rebuild I did a couple years ago. Able to gently press the pistons into place with 1 finger, with some occasional finagling to stop the rings from catching.

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As per instructions I found in several places, rod bolts were cleaned and then tightened/loosened 3 times before being torqued to final torque specs. Rods and mains were quadruple checked that they are properly torqued and then marked. Everything appears to be nice and freely moving.

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Looks fantastic with all the pistons in, and reminds me I'm in far more money than I had planned. Anyway bottom end is done! I plan on finishing up the engine this weekend as well as taking care of a few other things on the car while I wait for my turbo. Figure out the shifter slop/vagueness. Sort out what brakes I will be throwing on to replace the UFOs. Repair or decide if I will just replace the headlight I have with a burned reflector.

I have ordered a different exhaust manifold, I'll check it out and compare it to my STR type manifold I have currently. If this one looks a lot nicer I will use it instead. As far as brakes I want to run the b6 a4 1.8t front brakes but I'm having trouble finding them. That would allow me to retain my factory 15" wheels for added coolness. If not I may hop on board the ezpz HP2 swap or something along those lines. My UFO rotors are paper thin and I definitely won't be using those.
1990 Mustang GT - sold
1995 BMW 525i - sold
1978 Honda CB500 - sold
1993 BMW 318is - sold
1994 BMW 525i - sold

1994 BMW 325is - autocross bucket and temporary dd
1991 Audi 200 Avant - Unintentional project car extraordinaire
chappers
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:44 pm
Location: Indiana

Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by chappers »

I really like your writing style, wit and tenacity!
Also think it's severely cool you are doing an engine rebuild and upgrade as the first job on the car!
Keep the updates coming...
'91 200 20v TQ - Pearl the leggy old girl - 242k miles
'61 Austin mini - rusty barnfind racecar
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PRY4SNO
Posts: 2430
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:14 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Karl's 200 20v Avant "rowdy audi"

Post by PRY4SNO »

chappers wrote:I really like your writing style, wit and tenacity!
Also think it's severely cool you are doing an engine rebuild and upgrade as the first job on the car!
Keep the updates coming...

:metoo:
Find me on Instagram @pry4sno

|| 2010 Golf Sportwagen TDI /// #farmenwagen
|| 2002 Dodge Ram 2500 24vt 4x4 #bertancummins
|| 1992 80 quattro 20v /// Eventual AAN'd Winter Sled
|| 1990 Coupe quattro /// Because Racecar
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