PnP VEMS or Chip Tune for a driver...

[Justin517]

This is more of an info gathering post. I likely won't be going too crazy until the car is 25 years old and emission exempt (2 more years) but I'm weighing my options.

I love the idea of VEMS and being able to go COP some day, but at the same time I don't think I will ever need more than around 300whp in this car. I plan on driving it daily the equivalent of about half of the year, or about 10-15k miles a year. The biggest turbo I will run is likely a Billet K26, the transmission will stay 016. I MAY do rods to take full advantage of the Billet.

I assume for my "needs" my best bet is to just go with a chip tune for the K26 and 42# injectors when I get that setup. My only issue is that I very well may get just the turbo/injectors/tune once I upgrade my clutch and go to an 040 or 044 pump... but if I decide to add rods, a better exhaust manifold, or higher flowing cat-back... I will have to buy another tune (maybe a return customer discount?)... which will get me fairly close to the price of PnP VEMS.

so, I am kind of on the fence.

The only things that kind of scare me away from VEMS is:

-Constant playing with settings... I like to tinker but this is my driver
-Price... but it is worth it, but I can buy 3-5 tunes for that $$

anyway... what do you guys recommend?

I'm leaning towards the chip tune for simplicity, but I'm open ears...

Thanks!

[my2000apb]

less hardware variables get a chip tune
more hardware variables, standalone

[Justin517]

less hardware variables get a chip tune
more hardware variables, standalone

Yeah, I'll have to talk to Marc more.

Basically what I'd like to end up with is:

cast manifold, RS2 replica or similar
Billet K26
42# injectors
Rods
3" turbo back or similar

I'd like to do it in 2 stages... first just the turbo, injectors and tune for hopefully ~280whp then add rods and turbo-back and turn up the boost more for ~300+ whp. I'll honestly probably keep the stock intercooler too, for simplicity sake.

as much as I'd love to do a hank tube header, 35R or similar, etc. the 016 won't like it for long and I like having full boost by no later than 3500 rpm... I come from V8's, I like a big flat torque plateau.

[loxxrider]

That sounds like a chip tune setup to me. I definitely think Marc would have something for you even if you change setups a bit.

[chaloux]

I like a big flat torque plateau.

Booooooring

Think about it this way - if you have 3krpm of usable turbo, you just pick where you want that 3k and how much power you want for that 3k.

[loxxrider]

I like a big flat torque plateau.

Booooooring

Think about it this way - if you have 3krpm of usable turbo, you just pick where you want that 3k and how much power you want for that 3k.

... but my M5 has 6k of very useable power...

[chaloux]

I said usable turbo

[loxxrider]

True that There are ways of getting more than 3k out of a turbo, but I agree. Just pick where you want it and how much. I love turbo power delivery for hoonin' around. For the track though, you have to drive around it which stinks. I think we all like turbos here though enough to ignore the flaws.

[chaloux]

Oh fo so. On all accounts. But I quite like driving biggish turbos on the track. It just means try not to dip below 3k, and if you have to, well then I guess that's a true flaw and you'll be down on power for about... 2 seconds?

[EDIGREG]

Chip.

[UrSobsessed]

Your goals are for sure chip.. With the hardware you want, I'm pretty sure Marc has chip tunes already set up in Motronic that will sort you out.

[Marc]

we can do tunes for 3B or AAN. its way easier on the AAN just because the logging and physical hardware on the AAN is way better. Anyways, let us know what you need. support @ efiexpress.com

[Justin517]

Thanks for all the input guys!

Yes a big fat torque plateau is "boring" but for the stop and go traffic I occasionally (ok, daily) have to motor though, its just the way I want it to be. Plus the other constraints I am leaving in place (016, cast manifold, stock springs/lifters) I think a 3500-6500 or 7000rpm powerband is exactly what I want.

Basically, if I got this thing as fast or faster than my 540i (0-60 in 5.1-5.3 and 1/4 in 13.7-13.9 @ a little over 100) by 2016 I will be very pleased.

I think a chip tune is the best idea... I guess I'll be spending some $$ this spring...

[Justin517]

we can do tunes for 3B or AAN. its way easier on the AAN just because the logging and physical hardware on the AAN is way better. Anyways, let us know what you need. support @ efiexpress.com

Hey Marc, thanks for replying!

I have the car running very nicely (other than some lifter tick). I'm going to get through the winter with it then I'll be talking to you for a clutch, IMS K26, 42# injectors (I may already have some), and a tune.

Just wondering, and I know each car is different, but what kind of hp/tq are you getting from a "bare bones" Billet K26/injector setup on an otherwise stock car? a vague ballpark is fine, just wondering what to expect...

[loxxrider]

Thanks for all the input guys!

Yes a big fat torque plateau is "boring" but for the stop and go traffic I occasionally (ok, daily) have to motor though, its just the way I want it to be. Plus the other constraints I am leaving in place (016, cast manifold, stock springs/lifters) I think a 3500-6500 or 7000rpm powerband is exactly what I want.

Basically, if I got this thing as fast or faster than my 540i (0-60 in 5.1-5.3 and 1/4 in 13.7-13.9 @ a little over 100) by 2016 I will be very pleased.

I think a chip tune is the best idea... I guess I'll be spending some $$ this spring...

To be honest, I think a 30r/HX35/H1C is close to a perfect turbo for a stock 200 with 016, stock head, etc. The stock stuff will rev to 8k no problem and the turbo will keep making power up there. 3500 RPM with 15-20psi is pretty damned good (like Nick's 200). Just food for thought.

[Justin517]

The Billet K26 appeals to me because of price and simplicity.

a K-flanged 30R is big money and requires oil/coolant lines, an HX35/H1C requires a different manifold or adapter plate, or to hack the housing... and still requires oil/water lines too... and downpipe mods

It is hard to beat a 300+ whp capable bolt-on turbo for $850. Plus everything will look stock too.

[Mcstiff]

If I ever end up with a stock 20vt car (seems like a good chance) I'd have a hard time skipping over the billet K26 option. It seems that a chip tune makes good sense for that unless you want extras like flex fuel or the other motorsports functions you get with a VEMS. For a DD/non-track car, I think I'd be happy to keep the milage of unleaded and while the motorsports functions are fun I can live without them.

Full disclosure, I DD a VEMS'd E85 "only" Coupé Quattro so the comments above may seem disingenuous but they are defined by the constraints of a OEM 20vt, K26, and not owning a PnP VEMS. When/if I get a dyno tune, I'll want a version for premium fuel to be used in my commute (assuming it gave significant economy gains)

[Justin517]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure there are maybe 2 E85 stations in CT, the closest one is 40 miles away and no where near where I work either... not happening, pluys I can't justify the paltry mileage just for the performance, besides we get 93 octane here, I know it isn't as "good" as E85 but at least I'm not limited to 91 like many areas.

And as far as the motorsport stuff, launch control, etc... I would maybe use it twice a year and be afraid of breaking something every time, I'm good with a normal launch. coil on plug may be nice but not really necessary for the power level I'm looking for.

Looks like a chip-tune it is.

I'm looking forward to seeing IMS Billet/EFI Express tune 3B Dyno's at some point, most if what I am seeing are AAN's...