4 FOX SNAKES - Ross' 20vt 4kq

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highlander69
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by highlander69 »

Just got home.........bloody knackered!!

What a great productive day. Matt's dad had the engine block cleaned up and 2 pistons installed when I arrived. We assembled the short block ..no issues there.
I must say the connecting rod bearings etc looked perfect. No signs off oil starvation to be found anywhere. Even the bottom off the oil pan looked debris free,and spotless.

The head was a different story. First we noticed that on the cylinders that had been detonation ......or so the theory goes.....(primarily #3 being the worst) there were small ridges built up on the area next to the valves. We looked at this area very carefully,because I was worried that the new gasket wouldn't seal properly in this area. After some light cleaning with emery cloth, it became very clear that some off the missing material from the pistons has transfred from the piston to the head.......strange. Anyhoo we cleaned it all up and went to install the head.

What was also strange was that both sets off spark plugs were present, and I couldn't see any material missing from the plugs anywhere. I thought that with detonation usually the plugs were the first thing to get damaged? anyhoo back on track.

I noticed Matt's dad was having a hell of a time getting the ARP studs in.......I didn't like this, so we opted to pull the head back off to further investigate. As suspected the ARP washers had depressed about 0.020" into the head and slightly crushed the washer surface area making it difficult to get the ARP studs in. We grabbed the correct size drill bit, and Matt' s dad put some vice grips on it and went about slowly reaming out the collapsed area. Interesting to see that all the holes were in fact collapsed about 1/8" as noted by the now shiny surface that the drill bit had cut. A very easy fix indeed.

Matt's dad had some old diesel head bolts kicking around so he cut the studs up and used the much thicker,superior washers from the old diesel head bolts. We now had a much greater surface area for the head bolts to clamp on to the head. After seeing this I will never install ARP studs again with the washers supplied.

So that's where she stands. Matt's dad will spend some time on it tomorrow and hopefully get it fired up :D

Mat your dad and I decided that one day you will fix the tdi :P

Cheers, :beer:

Craig.
Hank
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by Hank »

Good to see this one moving forward. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but has anybody taken the CHRA out of hte housing to see if the turbine liked metal run through it at WOT?

Hank
EDIGREG
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by EDIGREG »

Awesome gesture by you and Marcel to help Matt out!! - great stuff.

Interesting observation on the washers - never seen that before.
Ed
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Audiurq
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by Audiurq »

Great to hear Marcel and Craig were able to help Matt get back on track :beer:

When the clutch went on my ur-q, I left it off the road for 18 months, now after driving it every
day for the last 5 weeks or so, I can't understand why it took so long to get it back on the road...

Well up until the petrol station this morning, 82.66 liters 94 Octane, $120.60..... :roll:

I read folks on the S2 forum have been using sport Quattro head bolt washers to avoid
problems with the size of the ARP stud washers.... of course I didn't :hide:
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vt10vt
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by vt10vt »

Woohoo! So glad to hear it's back on track!
-Shawn C.
2001 S4 6spd Avant blk/blk - stock daily
2002 01E B6 A4 Built FYF, Built 1.8T, HX35 ~330whp
1989 MC-1 200 Avant- MS1 -Gone but will never forget her lessons
1987 5ktq Sedan - Best $500 beater ever
highlander69
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by highlander69 »

EDIGREG wrote:Awesome gesture by you and Marcel to help Matt out!! - great stuff.

Interesting observation on the washers - never seen that before.


Ed, I will never again install these ARP washers. Not to freak anyone out, but this is a gauranteed failure point. As small as the distortion is , it surely must affect the clamping force.

I will be taking my valve cover off and installing new washers. A cheap fix, and totally necessary
IMO.

Cheers,

Craig.......p.s your engine bay looks fricking sweet :beer:
EDIGREG
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by EDIGREG »

Maybe I'll do the same... let me know if you find some appropriately-sized off the shelf washers (from mcmaster carr etc).

And thanks!!
Ed
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pilihp2
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by pilihp2 »

Chris has some better washers for this exact situation
http://brydon-eng.com/catalog/products/ ... t-quattro/
-Phil
87 5ktq - 20vt
91 v8 5spd - Why?
05 S4 - Gone and very much so forgotten
14 TDI Touareg

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EDIGREG
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by EDIGREG »

Perfect thx
Ed
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chaloux
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by chaloux »

might try to start this piece tonight. getting oil now then gotta time it (crank and cam) and kabooooom. That is hopefully a good explosion.

Hank, to answer your question, no. Gonna try to see with the bore-o-scope.
Matt

18 Silverado 1500 work pig, roof rack and tonneau cover
11 Jetta sedan TDI DSG, rear muffler delete
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES

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AngryTaco
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by AngryTaco »

Whats wrong with the ARP washers?
1986 4000cs Turbo Quattro
2001 Dodge Dakota R/T Standard Cab
1990 V8 quattro
1995 urS6

-Hersh Performance and Racing Products-
Most orders are being refused until further notice. Please PM

Powerflex Dealer

#thuglife
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chaloux
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by chaloux »

They're too small in diameter and they can crush and mushroom the aluminum head. Fwiw we've only seen this on one of three heads we've done with arps.
Matt

18 Silverado 1500 work pig, roof rack and tonneau cover
11 Jetta sedan TDI DSG, rear muffler delete
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES

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Hank
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by Hank »

It happens at the new ARP torque spec of 90ft/lbs that those arp2000s are suppose to be torqued to. The old spec was 75lbs and I am convinced ARP did this to minimize the crush. Larger washers are the solution or manning up to a 12x1.5mm stud
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chaloux
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by chaloux »

So she fired up tonight. Only for about 30 seconds because when injector 2 and 4 were removed the car actually idled BETTER. I'm thinking plugs as we just used plugs that were used on the trip, ie suffered a bit.

Dad really wanted to start it :) Don't blame him, lots of hard work. Everything looked great, no leaks, but again only 30 seconds of run time before I said nope, no thanks, don't want fuel messing shit up again. Meanwhile I was trying to connect to VEMS. On the computer we've been using for a year or two (cheap old Dell) the serial port suddenly started freezing every time I tried to connect to VEMS. And I mean freezing the whole computer. When I turned ignition switch off, back to normal. On, freeze. Repeat. So I tried uninstalling/reinstalling VEMS and drivers, no dice. So I just downloaded some replacement .sys files and put them there, but now I'm at home and can't check. Might try a different laptop tomorrow with a serial-usb adapter. It was just really frustrating because we checked the timing and it was advanced (no ignition lock) but then when I went to connect the laptop said NOWAI. Ugh. So unfortunately it's still sitting there but at least it runs. New plugs tomorrow and hopefully I can get this VEMS BS figured out. I know it's not just VEMS because I opened up the 034 882c software which also tries to use the serial port, and it froze as well. Piecashit.
Matt

18 Silverado 1500 work pig, roof rack and tonneau cover
11 Jetta sedan TDI DSG, rear muffler delete
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES

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Hank
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by Hank »

Congrats Matt. So to sum up, is the ignition advance off?

Hank
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chaloux
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by chaloux »

Couldn't tell yet. It was definitely advanced with no plugs in, but I wasn't able to lock it with VEMS and we're using a non adjustable light this time. So I know VEMS calls for 9° while cranking, it's just hard to tell if it was 9° or more.
Matt

18 Silverado 1500 work pig, roof rack and tonneau cover
11 Jetta sedan TDI DSG, rear muffler delete
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES

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chaloux
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by chaloux »

Got a weird problem with 2 and 4. Still have the same issue before the rebuild where 2 and 4 are rich. Swapped plugs, coils, and injectors. This is also a problem that started when the trip was almost over. The head is the same but whole bottom end is different. Is this a VEMS issue somehow? Does VEMS have per injector trim? I don't really want to mess with that. Anything I'm missing here? 2 and 4 are wet and when the injector plug is puked the engine revs up a bit (presumably burning the fuel) and then when it's plugged back in it revs up a bit again (burning the new fuel) but then gets overwhelmed.

What do?
Matt

18 Silverado 1500 work pig, roof rack and tonneau cover
11 Jetta sedan TDI DSG, rear muffler delete
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES

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chaloux
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by chaloux »

Oh and compression was 160-165 across the board. No leak down yet.
Matt

18 Silverado 1500 work pig, roof rack and tonneau cover
11 Jetta sedan TDI DSG, rear muffler delete
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES

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Mcstiff
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by Mcstiff »

Test light on the injector plugs to see if they are stuck on? You should be able to view the signal in the all outputs screen. Also, there are times per injector so I'd make sure they are off.
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chaloux
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by chaloux »

Thanks ed, will check it out. Just seems weird to me that it would just start happening randomly if it was a VEMS/wiring problem. I would have thought it'd be there from the start. But will investigate.
Matt

18 Silverado 1500 work pig, roof rack and tonneau cover
11 Jetta sedan TDI DSG, rear muffler delete
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES

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Mcstiff
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by Mcstiff »

I agree, weird voodoo for sure.

Looking at that old config you uploaded, I don't see any injector weirdness (but I've only been using VEMS ~1yr).

I'd put a DMM on the harness and see what it is doing for sure.
highlander69
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by highlander69 »

Matt,

Along the lines of what Ed mentioned. If you can get access to a digital volt meter that has
injector milliseconds that would give you a quick reading. A oscilloscope would be even better.
I have one, but unfortunately it`s at work.

I`ll see you at the meet tonight, and we can talk. Great news it`s running. You have an awesome
dad!! :beer:

Cheers,

Craig
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Marc
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by Marc »

there are per cylinder injector trims available in vems. I'll check your config to see if thats the case. a log of it running can also show per cylinder trims if they are happening at the software level.
Marc Swanson
Proprietor, EFI Motorsport
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loxxrider
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Re: Matt's 87 4ktq - "4 FOX SNAKES" - dead

Post by loxxrider »

Need to change the title. Not dead anymore!
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
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