Pops' 1997 S6 - 07k BLK WDW

[chaloux]

Glad you found this thread Patric, it's great to have your direct input instead of just speculation.

The only thing I don't understand is a 180whp difference on the same boost, and very close to same motor and turbo. E85 helps with timing etc.. I understand that, but does E85+cams make 180whp on the same boost? 620whp would be close to what Comp has rated this turbo for (810hp), yet you've still got 10+psi in it.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, just would like to see a bit closer #s considering this is THE closest build to dad's out there as far as I can tell.

Regardless of all that, very nice work/car and I hope you enjoy it!

[EDIGREG]

Even with meth, I don't think you're anywhere close to MBT with your pump gas tune. So there is definitely a lot more power there with E85 or C16. 180whp worth at the same boost? No, but different dynos/different conditions. I think the turbo is capable of more than 620whp, high 600's would be my guess. STILL, that is a ton of power for only 26psi, kind of hard to believe.

Also, did you guys ever hit det on the dyno at the last session? I'm curious how much more is there on pump+meth, if any. What does your spark map look like?

[chaloux]

We never hit det. We were tuning timing until the point where there was no more TQ increase, then we went further, still no det, then came back a few degrees.

I'll get our spark map from dad sometime and post a screenshot.

[bradyzq]

Hi Patric,

Welcome!

E85 is what I was missing. I guess the dyno was still showing gasoline AFR scale.

So, same conditions except BSFC of 0.65 and 7.8:1AFR, will get you something like 730HP + or - at the crank. Getting closer! I am still amazed at the difference in power at the same boost level.

[bradyzq]

Patric, You're only 80whp behind Javad with 14 PSI to play with to get there, and he was using a GT42!

[EDIGREG]

We never hit det. We were tuning timing until the point where there was no more TQ increase, then we went further, still no det, then came back a few degrees.

I'll get our spark map from dad sometime and post a screenshot.

interesting...with 8.5:1 maybe you actually DID hit MBT?? :?

Just curious, can you post up your spark map?

[Urs4 up north]

Glad you found this thread Patric, it's great to have your direct input instead of just speculation.

The only thing I don't understand is a 180whp difference on the same boost, and very close to same motor and turbo. E85 helps with timing etc.. I understand that, but does E85+cams make 180whp on the same boost? 620whp would be close to what Comp has rated this turbo for (810hp), yet you've still got 10+psi in it.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, just would like to see a bit closer #s considering this is THE closest build to dad's out there as far as I can tell.

Regardless of all that, very nice work/car and I hope you enjoy it!

Thank you guys allot, nice to see people that understand the effort that went in to this build.

This just might make your day, on the dyno graph theres a smaller curve 480hp. That curve is with 1.5bar, lower timing and on pump gas (98octane)

[chaloux]

E85 is what I was missing. I guess the dyno was still showing gasoline AFR scale.

So, same conditions except BSFC of 0.65 and 7.8:1AFR, will get you something like 730HP + or - at the crank. Getting closer! I am still amazed at the difference in power at the same boost level.

Shoot, that is insane. Meth is just crazzzzzzzy.

Urs4 up north wrote:[/quote]

Thank you guys allot, nice to see people that understand the effort that went in to this build.

This just might make your day, on the dyno graph theres a smaller curve 480hp. That curve is with 1.5bar, lower timing and on pump gas (98octane) [/quote]

I was wondering what that line was! The spool difference for E85 is amazing, over 250rpm. And the pump gas tune makes me feel better

interesting...with 8.5:1 maybe you actually DID hit MBT?? :?

Just curious, can you post up your spark map?

I guess anything is possible. Perhaps Brady can clarify or correct me, but I'm pretty sure that's what happened on the dyno, I remember it fairly clearly. Dad's getting me a log right now so I can post a spark map. But first gotta get ready for work

[Mushasho!]

Have I mentioned how much I love this thread?

Sent from my NexusHD2 using Tapatalk

[chaloux]

Pre-tune spark map:




Latest spark map:

[bradyzq]

There's IAT timing compensation that's not shown here. Careful!

[pkw]

chaloux, what was the fuel used for those timing maps? h2o/meth? high octane gas?93 pump? some combo? was the base timing ever zeroed and verified with a timing light after the ecu install?

[VasP]

why is the timing dropping on 102-130kpa on 4800-5500rpm??

since your car can have full torque by 4000rpm with the use of the quick spool valve, then why is the timing rising only after 5500rpm? you can still keep the timing low up to say 4200-4300 and then give more timing there and beef up the torque curve even more, esp. with the E85.

[bradyzq]

why is the timing dropping on 102-130kpa on 4800-5500rpm??

since your car can have full torque by 4000rpm with the use of the quick spool valve, then why is the timing rising only after 5500rpm? you can still keep the timing low up to say 4200-4300 and then give more timing there and beef up the torque curve even more, esp. with the E85.

The timing from 102-130kpa was steady state tuned IIRC. The difference is 1 degree.

Actual peak torque is at about 5400RPM, not 4000RPM. Did you look at the dyno graphs?

Fuel is 94pump plus meth, not E85.

[Audi_CQ]

The only thing I don't understand is a 180whp difference on the same boost, and very close to same motor and turbo. E85 helps with timing etc.. I understand that, but does E85+cams make 180whp on the same boost?

I tested my 2.5 with both petrol and E85 on the same Mustang dyno and it was 100whp difference at same boost(1.8bar / 26psi). 480whp with petrol and 580whp with E85. Only 8deg adv at peak hp with petrol and 20deg with E85.

[VasP]

why is the timing dropping on 102-130kpa on 4800-5500rpm??

since your car can have full torque by 4000rpm with the use of the quick spool valve, then why is the timing rising only after 5500rpm? you can still keep the timing low up to say 4200-4300 and then give more timing there and beef up the torque curve even more, esp. with the E85.

The timing from 102-130kpa was steady state tuned IIRC. The difference is 1 degree.

Actual peak torque is at about 5400RPM, not 4000RPM. Did you look at the dyno graphs?

Fuel is 94pump plus meth, not E85.

Yes 2 pages back I saw the dyno graphs, and it looks the torque spikes at 4000rpm. If you have more timing earlier on the revs you may get higher or beefier torque curve. Since you have that much timing after 4800rpm, it logical to have the peak torque there.

I also pointed out the drop in timing at 102 kps, as timing is always going up with revs or maybe stays the same. Not going backwards. I have only seen that on maps at the redline merely for safety.
by Android

[chaloux]

Not big news, but spent some much needed time on the car doing some little things. Got the wiring for the W/M injection in through the firewall finally. Also did the same for an N75 to control the QSV. And finally, the clutch job is about 1/2 done. Just didn't have enough time in the day The new pressure plate is so much beefier than the unit used with the DMF. After driving a few stock cars I'd say that the Stg4 extreme street w/ DMF pedal feel is lighter than stock, so we'll see how it feels with this 7A setup.

Last thing to do before hitting the dyno again is order and install the AEM failsafe unit. It's pretty schweet. Trips a ground for VEMS to map switch for safety if it flows too much (leak) or too little (clog).

[bradyzq]

Excellent!

[ChrisAudi80]

like

[chaloux]

So after dad finished up the clutch install he took the car out for a ride. "Felt great," he said. Until 2000rpm, when the tach swings wildly from 1500-3900rpm. What the friiiiiiiiiiiiiig.

SO tonight we got around to addressing the problem, and after a quick call to Marc started looking at the G4 and G28 sensors. Replaced them, no change. Checked the ECU (as I mentioned above I was wiring in some crap), it was all good. We sat around stroking our (non-existent) beards for a while and finally decided to try loosening off the G4 and G28 to see if perhaps they were too close. I have no idea why this idea came to be, but I think dad thought it up. Anyway, tried the G4 first, it did nothing but screw up the idle. When we went REALLY far out it idled like crap but revved like a dream. So we slowly tightened it down, until finally we decided that wasn't it. 30 minutes later... :slap: So then we tried the G28. Bingooooo. Idle was perfect, revved happily.

But now how to keep it in one place? It needed only a small gap, but all the washers we had with openings big enough were very thick. So a small piece of bent mig wire was the answer. Wrapped it around the sensor and tightened it down and voila.

So my driving impressions on a 7A/Stg4 Extreme Street setup that is supposed to hold 900lb/ft: feels good man. Clutch is just a bit stiffer than stock. Feels springy, actually. But good. Engagement is very positive but I wouldn't say grabby. I think if one is going for a balls-to-the-wall street clutch setup, this would be THE one. I can't say how good it'd be for drag racing, but it feels wonderful around town.

30psi here we come

[VasP]

had the same problems with the 7A flywheel. Ended up welding a bigger pin on it so the VR sensor can pick it up. It revs nice now, but screws up the signal on 6500ish rpm sometimes. Marcell from vems said as long as its not misfiring, its ok. But they are working on some kind of future solution for it over at VEMS.

[lew20vt]

had the same problems with the 7A flywheel. Ended up welding a bigger pin on it so the VR sensor can pick it up. It revs nice now, but screws up the signal on 6500ish rpm sometimes. Marcell from vems said as long as its not misfiring, its ok. But they are working on some kind of future solution for it over at VEMS.

Have you talked to Mr. Swanson about this? I had an issue with the 7a flywheel when installing the VEMS on my converted coupe. The cutouts on the back of the 7a flywheel were creating some false signals to the flywheel sensor. Mark and Jason came up with a solution and my coupe runs great on the VEMS

[VasP]

yes i did. When it happened, i was on the phone with him, long distance!!

long story short, on mine, making the distance shorter didnt help. Vems still couldnt run. So we had to weld a bigger pin, which has been in place every since, but it throws sec.trigger errors after 6400rpm, and i think its the size of the pin on there now that causes it. It doesnt misfire and Marcell told me not to worry about it.

Great help from Marc about this as always. If it hadnt been for him, my rs2 could have been broken into pieces and sold with so many issues that needed sorting out...

[Highlander]

First off,

I wanted to say a "big thanks" to you you and your dad for making this
past weekend ice racing happen.

We all had a blast!!!

It was really nice at lunch sitting down talking to you and you dad about the car.

That s6 is a monster, really nice, clean car and bloody fast also.

It looked like a cruise missile going down that front straight.

Good times,

Cheers,

Craig

[ralleyquattro]

Marcel and Matt, I would like to second Craig's comments, we always talked about it, but takes people like you to actually pull it off.
Thank you very much, I am sure everyone had a blast, I know I did.

Cheers