Her Mars Red 83 Urq ...23psi of manual boost...vid

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quattro87
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 7A 20v head work

Post by quattro87 »

Ok I guess a small update is in order. As busy as I've been I did find the time to start getting the old 20v out of the car. I started by disconnecting everything, pulling the radiator and aux radiator out of the way, pulling the exhaust manifold, turbo, intake manifold, downpipe, CIS crap and basically had nothing but the longblock and tranny. I then pulled the front axles, motormounts, tranny mounts and rear driveline to get ready to drop the drivetrain through the bottom. I sure wish the old Urqs had the removable radiator support so that everything could be slid out the front. Oh well

The car up on jack stands high enough to drop the motor.
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Axles and crap out of the way
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I dropped the front subframe first.
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Once the subframe was out of the way I put a floor jack under the center diff, put the creeper in place, took the weight off with the hoist, removed the engine mount nuts and started dropping it down .
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Once down on the creeper I wheel it right out.
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I pulled the tranny off and I'm now ready for cleanup
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quattro87
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt pulled

Post by quattro87 »

A few pages back I had taken the AAN apart for cleanup and balance before reassembly. This presented it's own set of problems, since anyone that has had the opportunity to take an I5 in to balance knows the look of the machinist when 5 cylinder is mentioned. There really isn't a lot of information out there on balancing the I5!! I thought that I would touch on a few threads that I've read and what I have come up with.

First discussion is always whether or not the I5 is internally or externally balanced from the factory. ALL AUDI I5 ENGINES ARE EXTERNALLY BALANCED!!!!!!! I believe they are zero balanced cranks WITHOUT added weight for dynamic reciprocating balance. By this I mean we could spin the AAN crank just bare and it was within .5 gr on the damper end and perfect on the flywheel end. The AAN flywheel is very easy to see the welded weights that are added for that end and the early I5 damper/pulleys with the chunk of metal that the tool for tightening the bolt uses is also drilled to lighten that blob and come up with a 50gr balance shot.
The AAN serpentine damper is not as easy to see the weight, but it to has balance weight added.

The second discussion is always whether or not the I5 needs to be balanced with bob weights. Bobs are used on the counter weight portion of the crank to offset the reciprocating weight which is made up of the small end of the rod, wrist pin, clips, piston, and rings. Usually a few grs. of oil weight is also added. Because inline 6 cylinders are naturally balanced and I4s also have two pistons going up at the same time as two are going down and offset one another, neither one of these configurations need bobs while balancing. The same is true with opposing engine configurations like porche, suburu, VW etc, but V8s and V6s need to balanced using made up bobs. I5s NEED TO BE BALANCED WITH BOBS. The throws are 72deg apart from one another so there is never going to be exact cancellation of moments. The ends of the I5 crank are going to want to flex up and down in relation to the center of the crank. Ideally a counter balance shaft directly above or below the crank turning the same speed as the crank should be used, but obviously packaging something like that would be difficult. More than likely the shaft would have to be off to one side and would be better, but still a compromise. Audi opted out of using a balance shaft.

The next discussion with your machinist is going to be what percentage of reciprocating mass needs to be used in making up the counterweight bobs. The crank can be in static balance meaning that if freewheeling on it's bearings the shaft will not want to turn either direction when stopped because of a heavy spot wanting to fall down, but dynamically can be out of balance. Because of the pistons constantly moving up and down and the reciprocating weight always changing along with the inertia stops on the top and bottom of the stroke, the counter weights of the crank shaft have to be weighted to offset this weight dynamically. Because it is constantly changing, the engineers come up with a percentage of the reciprocating mass to add to the rotational mass to make up the bob weights. Most V8s use 50% of reciprocating for calculating bobs whereas 60deg V6s might use 38% reciprocating in their calculations. The point being is there are all kinds of books, articles, motorhead memories and other means of finding out what is supposed to be used, but Audi I5s aren't that easy to find that information. Sometimes if the information isn't there the machinist will reverse engineer by spinning the stock crank with bobs made up with the most common factor of 50% and see if it dynamically balances or not. If not bobs of 60% or 40% are used until it gets closer and closer to what the factory used. AUDI and most I5s that I can tell use 50% reciprocating as their factor in making up the bobs.

Here is a view of my AAN crank on the balance macine with the bobs made up.
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A picture of rods being weighed to determine the big end weight versus the smallend weight.
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The rotating weight is made up of the big end of the rod, rod bearings and an allowance for oil. This weight is taken as 100% and added to the percentage of reciprocating weight which in this case is 50% of the weight of the piston, rings, clips, wristpin, and small end of the rod. This makes up the weight of the bob.

If, like in the case of an Audi I5, the engine is externally balanced and one wants to have it internally balanced so that aftermarket flywheels, clutches, and dampers can be used the weight that has been added to the outside ends will have to added to the counter weights on the crank to keep in balance and be all internal. This can not only be difficult, but expensive since weight has to be added by drilling, filling with mallory or other heavy metals, and then capped with a weld or threaded for a plug to keep centrifical forces from throwing the weight back out. When building a built motor with aftermarket rods and pistons there is usually enough weight difference (aftermarket being much lighter) that the crank can be internally balanced without adding weight. This is especially true when building a stroker where the crank came from a diesel application and has counter weights that had to offset large heavy duty rods and pistons. If this is the case changing to internal balance is good, but that doesn't mean that external balance is bad. It just limits you to what can be used front and rear and will have to have the same balance as the damper or flywheel that is being replaced.

I used after market Scat rods with OEM AAN pistons and wasn't able to internally balance without adding weight so I opted for an external balance. I wanted to change from the serpentine setup on the AAN to the V-belt of the 7A and use the 7A damper pulley. For the rear I used an aluminum Fidenza flywheel. We ended up drilling into the edge of the flywheel to add weight to come up with balance.

Here are some links to some balance information that I used.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... wM0RgxDWCQ
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... u2-M4ssn0Q
http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthread ... 880&page=3
http://motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=10 ... ead#unread
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=40946
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=36778
http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21805
http://www.codecogs.com/reference/engin ... forces.php
http://books.google.com/books?id=mX1-OJ ... q=&f=false
http://www.autozine.org/technical_schoo ... mooth2.htm
Highlander

Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt pulled

Post by Highlander »

Looking good John.


thanks for taking the time to do such a informative write up.

I look forward to seeing the end result.

Cheers,

Craig
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audifreakjim
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt pulled

Post by audifreakjim »

:stupid:

That is an excellent writeup! I didn't think About having to add weight, this should be stickied
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Mcstiff
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt pulled

Post by Mcstiff »

:stupid:

Lets archive that post!
Hank
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt pulled

Post by Hank »

My Dad is smarter than you Dad

:lol:
quattro87
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt pulled

Post by quattro87 »

ShavedQuattro wrote:My Dad is smarter than you Dad

:lol:


:o :o Whooooa not so fast!! If anyone has anything to add or take away I'm game.



Oh and by the way......My boy is faster than your boy. :lol:
quattro87
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt pulled

Post by quattro87 »

Now that the rotating assembly is balanced, the engine is ready to put back together. As earlier stated, the motor is going back together with Scat rods, AAN pistons with new OEM rings, coated mains and rod bearings, and ARP main and head studs.

Here is the block cleaned and ready for install
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ARP main studs in and coated bearings laid out.
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All main and rod bearings plasti gaged (its at this point that my camera got bumped into a wrong setting)
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Crank set in with assembly lube and the ARP studs torqued down.
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Rings were all checked for gap and came very tight right outof the box. It was interesting however that I had two sets of rings in my parts drawer and just grabbed the first set. Like they usually come there were four sets of rings together with the fifth box being separate. While checking ring gap I was coming in at about .013 until I got to this loose box and it measured out at about .017. The boxes were identical Goetze, but the rings themselves were slightly different. I checked the other set I had and came up with a match. Everything was brand new, but different. It pays to check!!
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Pistons in and ARP head studs installed.
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Head was bolted down using a MLS gasket and torqued to 70lbs in 3 steps. I know that is more than ARP calls for but being that I don't have a stretch gauge and have read posts from people torqueing using the stretch gage method and coming up with ~70lbs, I opted to use this figure. 7A cams were then installed with new seals.
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1wheelpeel

Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt being assembled

Post by 1wheelpeel »

Thanks for sharing all this information. Great stuff.
a_CQ

Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt being assembled

Post by a_CQ »

Very nice. So cool you have an apricot tree in your yard!
Quattro v1.0
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt being assembled

Post by Quattro v1.0 »

a_CQ wrote:Very nice. So cool you have an apricot tree in your yard!


Almonds too, but they prolly ain't quite ready yet.

Gimme a call when it's time to harvest peppers and tomatos again ;o) Best salsa ever!
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speeding-g60
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt pulled

Post by speeding-g60 »

quattro87 wrote:Oh and by the way......My boy is faster than your boy. :lol:


where is my dad when i need him? oh yeah, he likes Corvettes.

quattro v1.0 wrote:[/quote]
Gimme a call when it's time to harvest peppers and tomatos again ;o) Best salsa ever![/quote]

:stupid:
quattro87
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt being assembled

Post by quattro87 »

quattro v1.0 wrote:[/quote]
a_CQ wrote:Very nice. So cool you have an apricot tree in your yard!


Almonds too, but they prolly ain't quite ready yet.

Gimme a call when it's time to harvest peppers and tomatos again ;o) Best salsa ever![/quote]

You crack me up Sean. Usually I'm in trouble because I'm not working on His Urq, but now since food is involved and especially care packages from the garden, I guess it was alright to spend time weeding. :lol: Late start on the garden this year, so it isn't much.

Petar, we love our apricot tree, but it's pretty hard beating the birds to the punch. I think they get up in the morning, have a family discussion on the plan of the day at which time the kids are told the apricots are looking good, but remember kids no double dipping!! It just burns me to go out and see a branch of 20 apricots with just one peck in each one to test them out or ruin them depending on whose view you take. :-) I don't mind sharing so much, but I wish they would start one and finish it. :frustrated: They are finely going to stop on the apricots now since they are all picked and either eaten or dried and now move on to the Peach tree. :(

The weather hasn't opened the almond husks yet, but they are ready to eat. The problem we have there, is that last years family of three or four chipmonks have multiplied into about two dozen almond eating machines. I go out to get the paper in the morning and they all start running leaving their little piles of green husk dust in little piles by the TT where for some reason they think is the best place to shell the nuts. I even found the beginnings of a nest on the top of the 1.8t when I went to change the oil last week.


I need Hank back home. As a kid he would spend hours watching out the front picture window at these chipmonks climbing one of the almond trees to get nuts. Sometimes they will shell them in the tree, (if I happen to have the TT for the day) and Hank would sit and watch until they finely had the husk chewed off and were down to the nut which they were going to run back to the house and save for winter. As they would start to come down the tree, Hank would run out the door making noise at which time the little critter would drop the nut he had worked so hard to shell and Hank with a big victory smile on his face would run over and eat the shelled almond. :lol: He was probably six or seven at the time and spent hours at his game.

I also have grapes, pears, peaches, and pomagranates if I can beat the animals to them.
quattro87
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt being assembled

Post by quattro87 »

Oh and Aaron, you want to take exception to my statement that my boy is faster than your dad's boy? Lol I'll bet when Chub is at a driving age I may have my hands full......oh wait ....that would be you that will have his hands full. :lol:
quattro87
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt being assembled

Post by quattro87 »

Did a few things different than what I normally have seen on the forums when getting ready to install the 7A oil pan on the motor. I wanted to run the AAN windage tray, but also ARP main bearing studs. As you know the studs when used on the main bearings, hit the windage tray. The fix in most cases is to drill out holes in the spots where the tops of the studs hit. I went a different route and figured I could just bang out some room for the studs.

AGAIN SORRY ABOUT THE BAD PICTURES WHERE THE CAMERA WAS ON THE WRONG SETTING

What I did first was to grind out a dish about the size of a quarter out of the end of a short 2x4 that could be clamped into the vice.
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I then took a ball peen hammer and made room for the studs.
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It seemed to work well and have plenty of clearance.

Another first for me was that because I like the look of raw metal all of my aluminum parts have been bead blasted for that new, clean, raw metal look. The problem with this approach is that it doesn't take aluminum long to oxidize and get that tarnished look. I may be sorry, but I decided to try to clear all of my blasted aluminum parts.

This is what I used.
http://www.eastwood.com/ew-diamond-clea ... 11-oz.html
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Again sorry for the picture quality, but this is the look. Notice the bead blasted AAN oil pump!! There is a bunch of work and time involved to disassemble an oil pump to bead blast. Glass beads and tight tolerance oil pump really don't mix well. After all the effort (I wanted to inspect the pump for wear anyway) to cleanup, disassemble, blast, clear, reassemble and install, I realize that the AAN pump doesn't have provisions for the idler pulley of the v-belt 7A timing belt setup. :slap: I guess I will have to start over.
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Mentosman42
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt being assembled

Post by Mentosman42 »

bah i didnt realize there was a problem with running the 7a dampener on an AAN, thought it was bolt on as far as the timing belt would go.


as far as the main bearings, .025 mm isnt too tight? when i gauged mine(dm rods with coated bearings) they were coming up at like .0015-.0017 in(so like .038 mm) and we felt that was a bit tight. how much clearance do you think your going to gain when the bearings burnish? i know there is a huge range(.018-.060mm) but that just seems crazy compared to motors(domestic) ive built in the past.



*edit* and your gonna win, crank and assembly is at the machinist's but he is backlogged with work and as he is doin me a favor im not rushing him.
95.5 ur-S6
83 20vt urQ
quattro87
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt being assembled

Post by quattro87 »

You are right that .025mm is pretty tight. These are bearings that Darin ran in his cursed coupe quattro for a few thousand miles so they shouldn't burnish any. I know the pictures aren't the best but most of the gauges are a little.wider than the indicated .025 and is probably somewhere between .020 and .025mm which Im fine with. I know this is on the tight end of new clearance, but oil pressure ought to be good. :D

The 7a damper and cog can be used without problem, but the AAN oil pump can't be used unless the serpetine setup is being used. It doesn't have the casting provision to accept the idler pulley for the 7A timing belt setup.

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Wheeljack
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt being assembled

Post by Wheeljack »

Nice updates and info John. It sure is nice that we are doing almost the exact same thing, and I get to benefit from your...um...mistakes?

I have been trying to decide if I wanted to disassemble and clean up my AAN oil pump, but now I think I'll do it to the 7A!

Not looking good for BBQ2011, but we'll see...
The Projects: eS2 Coupe /// ur quattro /// urS4 /// Diesel Vanagon
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quattro87
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt being assembled

Post by quattro87 »

Good call Chris, unless of course you are going to be running the AAN serpentine belt. I didn't run it here because I wanted to run all the stock auxilaries. I may use the AAN serpentine on His Urq to come up with a bit more front I/C clearance.

No worries on the GTG....at least you have a nice coupe quattro to bring.
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Wheeljack
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt being assembled

Post by Wheeljack »

Yep...stock accesories also...I've already abandoned my aan head due to cracking, so may as well add some more 7a stuff to the mix...that's the good thing about having two engines to work from...at least I will be able to use the aan pistons and windage tray...

And the CQ is 'sooo last year' but I guess there are some new upgrades for this year. Can't wait and ill be sure to stick around for a bbq at the ranch if it happens again...
The Projects: eS2 Coupe /// ur quattro /// urS4 /// Diesel Vanagon
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Dave
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt being assembled

Post by Dave »

... i'm confused, i am running the stock aan oilpump and 7a dampener/v-belt setup... i have had no problems with it...
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Wheeljack
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt being assembled

Post by Wheeljack »

Maybe early versus late like cps?
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ralleyquattro
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt being assembled

Post by ralleyquattro »

Same here, stock AAN pump/block and 7A pulley, mine was circa 1993.
Martin Pajak

http://www.quattro.ca

82 Audi Ur-q, SQ project
83 Audi 80 q, Euro 2-Door
85 Audi Ur-q, Euro mit 3B
91 Coupe Quattro
93 Audi 80 q Avant, 2.5 TDI with 6-speed
04 Audi A4 1.8Tq Avant USP 6-speed
04 Audi A4 3.0q Avant USP 6-speed
quattro87
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt being assembled

Post by quattro87 »

I'm not really sure what the build was on my AAN. It came out of an S6 that had a factory longblock replacement so I would imagine a pretty late build. Funny thing about it is the head that came with it still had the distributor hole casting, suggesting an early build.

Here is a picture of the two pumps with the 7A on the left and the AAN on the right. Notice the casting provision for the idler pulley on the pump on the left.
Image
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ralleyquattro
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Re: Her Mars Red 83 Urq .... 20vt being assembled

Post by ralleyquattro »

John,

FYI all AAN heads have the dizzy casting, only difference was that early S4s used to have the bottom portion of the dizzy supplying the hall signal i.e. they did not have the hall sensor casting up front.

I looked through my pics but do not have a pic of the pump itself, however given I had no issues with the belts I bet I have the one on the right.

So which part of the pump interfears with the belts, or is it the pulley itself causing issues.

I know there is a difference between a 3B and 7A pulley as well, to add to the confusion.

HTH in some way
Martin Pajak

http://www.quattro.ca

82 Audi Ur-q, SQ project
83 Audi 80 q, Euro 2-Door
85 Audi Ur-q, Euro mit 3B
91 Coupe Quattro
93 Audi 80 q Avant, 2.5 TDI with 6-speed
04 Audi A4 1.8Tq Avant USP 6-speed
04 Audi A4 3.0q Avant USP 6-speed
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