The Project Pad

Just got the ECU back from EFI Express in the mail and couldn't wait to try the new setup out.

Here's what I just did....

Clutch replaced with southbend stage 3 daily setup
Rs2 exhaust manifold installed
Iroz Motorsport K26 Billet turbo installed
New "green giant" injectors installed
ECU upgraded with 3 bar MAP and EFI chipset to match the turbo

The only problem is the car won't start.

The battery was mostly drained from sitting and playing radio occasionally for the last few weeks so I have a battery pack to jump it. I believe I have heard some backfiring pops during cranking so I believe there is gas getting through.

Naturally for a no spark condition I suspected the crank position sensor. I think I had a problem with the one on my Cabriolet when I did the manual swap but it was pretty easily fixed. I took it out and tried to reposition it but had no luck getting it to start.

The only code I get is this which is weird...


Could this be an ECU problem or did I forget something simple?

Turns out I'm a dumbass and had the POS plugs backward. So I had spark, I had fuel, but not in the right places at the right time.

I've been playing a little since I got everything back together and I have to say its pretty awesome. The turbo has some lag similar to the old K24 but the power delivery is way different.

This boosts to about 30 vs the 19 that I saw with the stage 1 034 tune I had previously.

I did have a scare today when I went for a spirited drive. I did a couple full on pulls and then BANG the car died and I coasted to the curb. Turns out I blew the crossover pipe out of the turbo to crossover hose.
I guess I didn't have it secured all that wel!

A big thank you to Hank and Marc for their help and for developing this package!

hm, thats overboosting. I'm targeting closer to 26psi peak. I'll send you an email with some diagnostic steps. pump gas isn't really going to like running up there at that boost level.

Marc wrote:hm, thats overboosting. I'm targeting closer to 26psi peak. I'll send you an email with some diagnostic steps. pump gas isn't really going to like running up there at that boost level.

Well I got the revised boost chip in and there is no difference with the boost level. It still boosts at 30+

The other suggestion was that the original WG spring would function properly with the original chip. I put the old chip and old WG spring back but I am having an idle problem.

So here's the other thing, I put the rev.2 boost chip in backwards originally and the car blew the 5a fuse a couple times before I figured it out. Flipped it around and all seemed fine. I tested the boost and got to 30+ now with the old chip back in and the old WG spring in the car barely runs.

It is behaving this way...
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259 ... 0628f2.mp4
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259 ... 8c0246.mp4

I ran through the auto check to prove that the injectors, N75, ISVS etc. are all working right and I swapped out the POS's with working POS from my 12v V6 to make sure all the channels work.

Does this seem like a miss? A vacuum leak somewhere? I could suspect a leak in the boost system since I basically blew it up when the system detonated and the turbo to crossover pipe disconnected. I have since taken it all apart and reinstalled. At the same time, how would I reach 30psi if there was a leak that big. Did I screw up my ECU with the backward boost chip?

Help is greatly appreciated!

Just confirmed that all 5 plugs are firing . This seems more and more like an air fuel ratio issue. Could the MAP sensor be screwed up?

Had a 3.0 bar MAP put in when I got the chipset. I pulled up vag com to see if I got anything when the engine was running and saw something a little weird...



Note that this screenshot is from after the car died - which it strangely does every time you go to reading block 8. Hence the 0 rpm

The "absolute pressure" reading from lock 2 shows 968.0 mb and it doesn't vary at all.
My bentley tells me:



Would this being off explain my issues? The ECU is screwing with the Air/Fuel ratio so the car runs like shit?
Could this also explain the overboost issues?

So I have done a bunch of testing and still have problems.

Here is a recap…
I replaced the clutch (SB stage 3) and did an upgrade to IMS K26 Billet turbo with associated bits (RS2 EM, "Green Giant" injectors, EFI Express chipset, 3 Bar MAP Sensor)

Everything ran properly for a couple days but I had an overboost condition that was caused by a soldering issue on the MAP sensor (no signal to tell N75 to cut boost). Before we realized the MAP was bad, Marc sent me another boost chip thinking it could help. I did a boneheaded thing and installed the second boost chip backwards which blew the ECU fuse 2x before I realized the issue. I put it in correctly and did a test drive, had overboost again and started experiencing idle issues. The first overboost also blew the crosspipe off the turbo to crosspipe samco hose with a loud bang.

I have a rough idle that acts differently when the engine is cold and when it is hot

When cold, it barely starts and idles very rough. The vacuum rests around 8-10 psi but the car idles at 800 RPM – though rough. When you increase throttle the engine cuts out and dies. If you are able to get it to not cut out, it will eventually rev and pop a little bit.

When warm, the engine will rev and build vacuum to 20 psi or more but still idles at only 10-12 psi rather than the 18psi that was normal. See video…

So I have been trying to narrow down the issues….

Mechanically…

I have verified the timing of the engine – all good:



I have also tested the Compression
1- 168
2- 165
3- 160
4- 155
5- 162

So that should rule out any mechanical failure of physical timing or broken / stuck valves or anything like that.

I will address the work I’ve done in categories...

AIR –

The most popular suggestion was an issue with Air – a boost/Vac leak or a broken check valve or some other part of the intake system/PCV system etc.
I have pressure tested the samcos, intercooler and crossover pipe, tested the vac hose that goes to the ECU, Boost gauge, and through the firewall to the HVAC system. All are good.
I replaced the one way bleeder valve with the 034 Billet version and silicone bits, replaced the pressure regulating valve too.
Tested the Bypass valve. Physically and electrically tested the ISV. Tested the N80.
Removed Intake manifold and reinstalled with new gasket.
Tested the Throttle Body Potentiometer too.
I can find no issues anywhere within the air intake system.

SPARK
I have verified that I do indeed get spark from each spark plug.
I have replaced the POS’s with known good 12v V6 spares and there was no change
I replaced the plugs with Bosch FR5DTC tri-electrode plugs
One possible culprit I thought could be the G40 Hall sender. I can remove it while the car is running and there is not any change in the idle.
I have read that there is no need for the G40 once the ECU sees the initial signal and starts the car. However, I have also read that if there is no signal the ECU will retard the timing. Are there two kinds of signals that the G40 sends? One for the starting of the car and another for use during driving?
I did also check and verify that I have 5v at two of the three pins
2 of my OEM coils were replaced by the PO.
If this were a miss on one of the cylinders would it act the way I am describing? Can low vacuum be a result of a misfire?
I have tried to pull injectors one at a time to identify any misfire but each injector seems to effect the running of the engine.
The exhaust pipe does seem to have a rhythmic pulsing at idle. Perhaps like there is a gap in the firing order – but I can’t say for sure.

GAS –
I have verified that each injector has voltage, I have used the self-test procedure to make each injector click.
I have not tested fuel flow or anything. I can’t think of a reason that it should have been affected.
Could I have somehow installed the injectors incorrectly?

IGNITION TIMING
This is what the issue seems like to me. The car starts at 18 psi of vacuum and instantly drops.
I wonder if my backwards chip fried something?
How would I test this?

I guess the train of thought that leads me to ignition timing is this…

What would cause this vacuum issue? Could a rough idle cause the idle issue or does the rough idle cause the vacuum issue?
Does this instead indicate a timing issue either mechanical or ECU related? Since my mechanical timing has been confirmed, that leads to ECU timing right?
If that is the case, what can make the timing be off in this way?

Any help is GREATLY appreciated. I am pulling my hair out trying to figure this out.

Hi Ben,

so when I fixed the map sensor issue I test drove your physical ecu on a car here. none of the idle problems you mention existed on the test car prior to shipping, so this is not an issue within the ecu hardware itself or the chipset. I do think the most likely issue is a vacuum leak. being mass-flow, an air-tight intake tract is critical to proper running. my first thought is probably with a tear in the pcv tee that goes under the intake manifold. its a common failure item. When we test for leaks here we use an evap emissions smoke machine which identifies such leaks very quickly. you can also use compressed air. you say you pressure tested but you didn't mention how you did so. the most effective way is to force regulated air (we use around 15psi) in through either the compressor inlet or the compressor outlet pipe. be sure to block off the pipe that goes to the crankcase vent line when doing this. you are now listening for hissing. it is normal to hear air leaking out the exhaust (some valves will be open) also normal to hear some leakage into the crankcase (this is your leakdown past the rings, some amount is normal). nowhere else should you hear any hissing. feel around for air, and if you cant spot something but hear something, use soapy water to watch for bubbles.

hope that helps!

I was going to say ecu? But Marc NOPE'D that. Marc gave a good outline of HOW to test for pressure /vacuum. These things can be frustrating, I know :-)

Marc wrote:Hi Ben,

so when I fixed the map sensor issue I test drove your physical ecu on a car here. none of the idle problems you mention existed on the test car prior to shipping, so this is not an issue within the ecu hardware itself or the chipset. I do think the most likely issue is a vacuum leak. being mass-flow, an air-tight intake tract is critical to proper running. my first thought is probably with a tear in the pcv tee that goes under the intake manifold. its a common failure item. When we test for leaks here we use an evap emissions smoke machine which identifies such leaks very quickly. you can also use compressed air. you say you pressure tested but you didn't mention how you did so. the most effective way is to force regulated air (we use around 15psi) in through either the compressor inlet or the compressor outlet pipe. be sure to block off the pipe that goes to the crankcase vent line when doing this. you are now listening for hissing. it is normal to hear air leaking out the exhaust (some valves will be open) also normal to hear some leakage into the crankcase (this is your leakdown past the rings, some amount is normal). nowhere else should you hear any hissing. feel around for air, and if you cant spot something but hear something, use soapy water to watch for bubbles.

hope that helps!

Thanks Marc,
I tested the crossover pipe, intercooler and MM hose on my workbench so I know there is no leak in those. I pulled all the other hoses off the car when I was testing the components. the "T" fitting you mention is good too. I bought the 034 silicone hoses for that part but managed to destroy the T with the sharp end of the hose clamp that came with it within about 15 seconds of having it out of the box.

I am able to drive the car when it's warmed up. I didn't realize that until yesterday when I let it run for a little while and it started running better. Here's how it runs once warmed up
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYJ5KVqn-SQ[/youtube]

I did a little drive and have some video of that too. Note the vac sticking to -20 when I am driving - this is with the car in gear but my foot off the gas coasting...
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FER_8nsqXI[/youtube]

So then I got the balls up to try to test the boost. I was indeed able to get to 25 psi (and not higher)
Really the car runs pretty normally except for at idle.

Do you think this rules anything out?

So I used my plumbing supplies and put together a boost test plug. I had tested the crosspipe and the MM hose on my workbench so I know they don't leak.

I attached a 2" PVC Pipe to the MM hose and put about 15 psi in per Marcs direction above. The only thing I could find is a VERY small leak in the joint of the 034 Billet check valve I just installed. A very small amount of air escapes through the part of the valve where it screws together. Other than that I can't feel or really hear anything.

This video shows the pressurizing and depressurizing of the system from 0 to 15psi and back to 0. Does this depressurization look like you'd expect for air escaping the valves?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VUoOLWzAk4[/youtube]If this is NOT a vacuum issue, what else could it be?

you can also put your tester at the tb inlet, plug your compressor outlet etc and test it that way
what are you running for boost levels?

I have done all the boost leak testing that I know how to do and can't find anything. what's next to look for?

This has always seemed to my uneducated brain like a sensor or something telling the ECU to screw with the timing or AF ratio. Then for some reason the car runs pretty well once I get over 2,000 RPM

I can hit 25 PSI with no problem but I can't get the car to not die when I give it gas for about 5-10 minutes of rough idle.

HELP!

What could I have screwed up with the overboost issue?

have you cleaned the maf and iat sensors? ohm'd them?

I know you checked the intake system, but that really does sound like (from your description, and from the video) a vac leak. This is why I HATE MAF-based tuning. When I'd pressurize my system like that, it would blow up in about a second to ~20 psi and then just hold there for quite a while. You sure you didn't have any leaks? Even a small one can cause problems.

One sort of dangerous, but effective tricks is you can spray carb cleaner or ether in the bay while the engine is running... if the RPMs increase, then you know you've got a leak. Like I said, it can be dangerous. Don't try it at home

It seems that you pulled injectors to check for a loss (or no loss) in RPM or smoothness. That is a good sign that your fuel and spark are in good order. It doesn't really sound like a regular miss to me from your video to be honest. You need a louder exhaust for better diagnosis

To be honest with you, from a theoretical standpoint, timing will not affect engine idle vacuum directly. It can do so indirectly by changing the idle speed vs throttle position, etc. but that doesn't seem to be the case for you. Think about it... what generates the vacuum? Compression ratio, how open/closed the valves are on average per engine revolution, and engine speed (and thus, mass flow rate).

Now cam timing... that is a whole different story. You sure you are OK there right? I assume if you didn't do a cam install lately, then you are OK!

Fuel (too rich) can make it sound and act like that, but you'd KNOW if it was rich enough to do that. You can smell and see it. I don't really see how that alone would affect vac readings, so I feel like that should be ruled out. Also, usually that kind of condition will clear up at a different part of the map. Yours sounds like it is just doggin' all over the place.

Your compression numbers certainly look fine.

I dunno what else to say. Sorry if this doesn't help, but I'm just putting my thoughts out there! It'd be nice to plug in a VEMS to see if that would solve the problem. That'd rule out your vac system for sure. I loved having a stock ECU to swap in when diagnosing problems with my VEMS setup (really problems caused by me, not VEMS).

Only other thing I can think of that would make it idle that way would be a bad MAF or IAT like Tim just said, but that takes you back to the rich condition I mentioned before. A wideband is a wonderful diagnostic tool!

loxxrider wrote: A wideband is a wonderful diagnostic tool!

my2000apb wrote:

loxxrider wrote: A wideband is a wonderful diagnostic tool!

I was looking them up lat night, any suggestion of a compatible wideband?

Also, a suggestion from QW made me realize that this also started at the time that I filled up. Could bad gasoline cause the same symptoms?

Also, thanks for the feedback above...

I have cleaned the MAF, just swapped out the fuel filter, plugs, have a new O2 sensor coming today, new plug boots too.

I did a resistance check on the iat and a voltage check on the MAF - it returns 2.5v from pin 3 and increases with idle speed.

I have not been into the heads ever - so I'd expect the cams to be aligned.

I do think its overly rich. The popping makes me suspect that and there is a fuel smell when it's running particularly crappy.

Made some progress identifying the issues today!

I had tested the MAF a bunch of times with the engine cold by pulling the harness off to see if the idle got any better. It always just died. I also confirmed the harness was seated properly and the pins were all pushed forward.

Today I had the engine a little warmer and tried it again. This time, the engine damn near died and then purred like a kitten with -16 in Hg. Here is a video....

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIuk4T25MPU[/youtube]

So, If you remember, there were two events that led to my cars erratic idle and all around crappy running.
First an overboost situation that caused the car to hit at least 30 psi when it shouldn't have gone over 25. This blew the hard crossover pipe off the turbo outlet hose and the car started running like crap after the second instance of this.

Second was the improper install (by my dumb-ass) of a revised Boost chip on the ECU. The ECU has since tested good by Marc Swanson (he drove one of his cars with my ECU) but I don't know what damage the reversed chip could have caused.

So, is this simply a bad MAF? If so, why would it have broken from overboost or bad chip install?

Also, this does eliminate the boost leak theory right?

thanks again!
Ben

Grillage wrote:Had a 3.0 bar MAP put in when I got the chipset. I pulled up vag com to see if I got anything when the engine was running and saw something a little weird...



Note that this screenshot is from after the car died - which it strangely does every time you go to reading block 8. Hence the 0 rpm

The "absolute pressure" reading from lock 2 shows 968.0 mb and it doesn't vary at all.
My bentley tells me:



Would this being off explain my issues? The ECU is screwing with the Air/Fuel ratio so the car runs like shit?
Could this also explain the overboost issues?

What's block 2 in the first group, because I'm 99% sure its not -49c where you are.
Is that intake temp or coolant?
Either would make your car run like shit.

Sent from my HTC One X+ using Tapatalk 2

New MAF fixed it. All better thank god!

Feels good eh! That's awesome. Vids!

There was a local get together a couple weeks ago which was a great chance to clean up the car and take some pics (with my new camera!).......

The outside...






The only real damage is on the passengers side rear door. Was there when I bough the car. I may try a paint lessen repair guy at some point.



Inside...
The car is a 95.5 but I've replaced the radio cage and moved the cig lighter out of the center console and used some ecru carpet from a junkyard car to make the larger pocket where the diff lock is on non 95.5's
Also replaced the cig lighter with a dual USB socket. Hard wired to switched power...








Engine bay.



Anyway, I am running the stock original fuel pump (137k miles). I would like to replace it before it fails and am curious if I should use OEM or upgrade. I am running IMS K26 billet turbo, green giant injectors etc.

Car is super sharp... definitely a role model for many.

I'd suggest a Bosch 044 for your needs... quiet and drops right in for p'n'p install ease. Haven't used one myself but have read countless affirmations of success from others online.

Thanks! I bought an 044 and relay kit. Getting ready to install soon