Justin's '85 UrQ'd 4000 20vt Project - Tuning Help?

jretal · Post by **jretal** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:01 am

thanks ryan... hopefully w/in the next month or so it'll really start flying.

I think after next week I'll pretty much have everything I need minus the clutch. I'll try to get everything built up and order the clutch at the beginning of sept... then together she goes!

WAUG0806 · Post by **WAUG0806** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:16 am

I better hurry up and get that FP sender off to you, looks good so far!

jretal · Post by **jretal** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:26 am

ooh, i completely forgot about that... thanks Doug! Hopefully gonna start tearing into her this week. Valves should be waiting on my door step when I get home this afternoon, which means off to the machine shop I go tomorrow :-D

jretal · Post by **jretal** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:40 pm

Well it's been a busy past week... some good news, some bad news, and then some more good news.

Monday I got some more 034 goodies... these things are just straight up beautiful, no denying it. Javad, these are works of art... thanks for hooking me up with them

Yes, I scored some 34mm SS exhaust valves for my NF head because I didn't want this motor looking like Javads first 20vt :wtf:

They will be going into my NF head that I ported and polished to the best of my capabilities. I basically took out all casting lines and got it looking nice and pretty. Polished the exhaust ports w/ 120 grit and intake ports at 80 grit...

I dropped the head off at the machine shop on tuesday to have him regrind the valve seats, deck it, and press in new valve guides and then reassemble the head. Unfortunately, while I was there I found out bad news about the block I spent so much time fixing up to look pretty... it has considerable ring wear and inorder for it to be used I had to bore the damn thing out and put bigger pistons in it... :frustrated:

As this point, I knew a local guy who I've already bought a few things from... So I dropped him an email and let him know hte shipping list of stuff I wanted from the car/motor. He called back and basically said, I'm gonna sell you the entire car

And the deal he offered was one I COULD NOT refuse :woowoo:

So I now have 3 audis in my driveway, a landrover discovery and '89 mustang 5.0 in the grass and a boat around my house... and 2 of the audis don't run :frustrated:

Here's a pic of the official donor (EFI, built 20vt... Marc's old 20vt, and a slew of other goodies)

this car is a SPITTING image of my old 200... hits a lil close to home here, but this is not even close to as nice of shape as my old 200 was before it met its demise :(

Here are the 2 cars staring themselves down:

And let the chopping begin! I started by stipping the coolant stuff from the car and the A/C Condensor... no sense having that $hit in a track car!!!

After a LOT of fighting, I finally got the head, header and IM out of the car. Holy hell this was a PITA! I had to cut the bolts holding the DP to the cat because there was no way they were coming off w/o a fight. I could get to two of 'em with a sazsaw, and the other one I had to grind the head off with my dremel tool... then by dropping the subframe a lil bit... you get:

Then came the motor... I don't have a cherry picker anymore since my buddy moved away, so I decided I'd try to pull it w/o a floor jack and my roommate's help. I did a way stupid thing though. I had to drop the subframe to get to the last 4 bolts on the bottom of the block holding it to the tranny... well, after doing that I never reconnected the subframe, so basically after I pulled the motor, the tranny dropped, knocked the engine off the jack and threw the jack into my roommate and me out of the car... :frustrated: Thankfully, no one was hurt (only me feeling stupid) and a royal mess on the floor

Here I am cleaning up after my mess

and the motor out of the car:

So that's about where I stopped tonight. My back is way tired to say the least. I ground off the battery track and called it a night. I'm gonna tackle the interior tomorrow and get the old wiring harness out of the car and get it ready to accept the wiring of the Ib :woowoo:

But here's where she's resting in the garage. Been a long day for the two of us for sure!

There's no turning back now!!!!

:-D

AudiSport4000 · Post by **AudiSport4000** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:32 am

Awesome Justin!!! I got lucky and was able to pull the downpipe first, and then the head was pretty simple. Careful cutting the battery tray out of there, its close to some fuel lines

. You may find yourself saying "wtf did I get myself into", which I did tons of times after I had an empty bay. Its gonna be fun

jretal · Post by **jretal** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:21 am

Yeah, I noticed the fuel lines!!!! I had the angle grinder in there and was starting to cut when I looked closer and go... oh $hit! ALso, there were a lot of sparks flying and a decent amount of fuel laying around from disconnecting the CIS airbox... oops. I kept a wet rag on the fuel line ends and a fire extinguisher within arms reach. No fires though> I used a dremel to cut away close to the body so I didn't accidentally nip the fuel lines or the vac line running with them.

I've already said the "wtf have i gotten myself into" after the donor car showed up at 9am sunday morning

:?

Alloutofdonuts · Post by **Alloutofdonuts** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:38 am

Sorry to interupt but is this an S2 wheel? Just curious...BTW COOL PROJECT!! :wink: If I ever get my rent caught up(

)I'm doing another turbo swap, EFI this time though!

jretal · Post by **jretal** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:56 am

Alloutofdonuts wrote:Sorry to interupt but is this an S2 wheel? Just curious...BTW COOL PROJECT!! :wink: If I ever get my rent caught up( )I'm doing another turbo swap, EFI this time though!

I have no idea what wheels these are... they came on the car and will be leaving with the car since I have no other rims to toss on it that aren't worth more than the car itself

audifreakjim · Post by **audifreakjim** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:30 am

Nice, looks like it's all coming together. :-D

cuatrokoop · Post by **cuatrokoop** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:50 am

Those do look like early S2 wheels, which I like. If you need some other wheels in order to save those let me know, I've got an extra 5-6. I'd trade you outright for them :-D

SteveAngry · Post by **SteveAngry** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:09 am

Hey, that is Rob's old 200.

I'm PMing you about something.

Steve

Veeman · Post by **Veeman** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:11 am

Those rims look a lot like some rims that Nate had when he was in Maine... They were Mercedes rims in 15 x 7 (offset 35). They were on one of his parts cars and I thought they'd make cool winter rims on my A4...

I've got a pic somewhere...with the Merc centercaps. I wonder if they're the same as the ones in the pics.

Edit: Just found this on the web:

http://www.global-forma.hr/automobili/mercedes.jpg

Nice progress on the swap, by the way... I see you got snagged by the lure of parts cars! These things multiply on you...

AudiSport4000 · Post by **AudiSport4000** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:50 am

SteveAngry wrote:Hey, that is Rob's old 200.

I'm PMing you about something.

Steve

Dupree's? That would be kinda nutty, one of his old motors in my 4ktq, another in Justins

WAUG0806 · Post by **WAUG0806** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:58 am

I think they are ancient Ronals... I used to sell 'em back in the 70's :-D

R-9??? http://www.ronalusa.com/wheels/r9.html

audifreakjim · Post by **audifreakjim** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:00 am

He was such an Audi slut back in the day, I didn't recognize his car without the bra, I mean tow straps hanging out the back :wink:

jretal · Post by **jretal** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:24 am

AudiSport4000 wrote:
SteveAngry wrote:Hey, that is Rob's old 200.

I'm PMing you about something.

Steve

Dupree's? That would be kinda nutty, one of his old motors in my 4ktq, another in Justins

yup it's his old car. It has Marc's built 20vt in it with some additional massaging to the EFI stuff... like custom EFI fuel rail, TPS sensor, whole 9 yards... def got a lot of work into it... will make my life a LOT easier when tossing this into the 4000

Those do look like early S2 wheels, which I like. If you need some other wheels in order to save those let me know, I've got an extra 5-6. I'd trade you outright for them

Well, if you toss some beer $$ into it for a couple cases of the good stuff I'd gladly swap rims with ya buddy... you cover shipping to get 'em to ya. Other wheels have to have useable tires on 'em if at all possible though.

jretal · Post by **jretal** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:19 pm

Ok, well I spent today working on the cars again. I was originally planning on tearing into the 4000, but I realized, I should probably pull the wiring harness and motor from the 200 so that I have it all ready to rock when someone so desires to buy the body from me... cuz I don't want it in my driveway!!!

So I pulled out the wiring harness. Took a bit, but after I got all the wires unclipped, etc... it pulled RIGHT out:

Once I got that out, I started removing bolts, wires, vac hoses... you name it. I wanted to pull it out in as big of a piece as I could so I tried hard to keep everything intact.

With the aid of my roommate again, as well as renting a cherry picker from the local rental center (didn't want to drop this one like the last one!!!) We started to pull her out...

Took a bit because I forgot the 2nd bolt holding the damn starter motor in :frustrated: So after about 10 min of fighting with that, I found it and we continued on pulling....

And pulling

And finally out

I also checked out the clutch and pilot bearing... something tells me my pilot bearing is shot... what do you guys think???

QUESTION: how do I get this thing out!?!?! :wtf:

Any help is much appreciated guys, thanks!!!

Also, here's what the clutch looks like... does this need to be replaced? Or is it still OK to use? I compared it to a new clutch that I have for my A4, and it has the same amount of meat left on it... but the A4 clutch has ribs on it, where this one doesn't. It actually doesn't even look like the ribs ever existed on this one... so let me know guys!

Also, seems I'll be redoing my rear main seal as well. REally wasn't too much oil anywhere, but its seeping, and I have the motor on a stand... sooooo, I'm gonna replace it while I'm not crawling under the car cursing and swearing :-D

So from this point, I need to go pick up my rebuilt head from the machine shop as well as my lightened flywheel. As for the homestead... I need to finish reassembling the wiring harness for the Ib since the PO had cut it to give me the ECU instead of pulling the whole harness like I was hoping it would :frustrated: and then figuring out what wire goes where... does the Ib require a stock O2 sensor???? Javad, Nate or anyone else that wants to chime in? I'm gonna be running a wideband zeintrix setup, so just trying to figure out if I need to wire it in or not. The wires on the Ib plug were taped together, but I dunno if that was just done to get it out of the way or what.

I'm hell bent to get this clunker out of my driveway now, so hopefully I can get parts off it that anyone needs and get it moving. PO left 4 point harnesses and a bunch of other stuff in the car that I will be keeping and transferring into the A4 or the 4000 for sure

I was VERY happy to see those... not gonna lie to ya 8)

As you can see, though I have 3 audis in the driveway, it's still starting to look a lil trashy

I was able to get the 200 back together (minus the motor of course) but the JT motor is still laying around in pieces, etc...

OK, until next time.....

AudiSport4000 · Post by **AudiSport4000** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:36 pm

Looks good! I tossed you a PM about a few brand new rear main seals Ive got kicking around, as well as a rear main gasket.
As for the pilot bearing, at least you had SOME of it left! It was barely noticable on my motor but only the outer racing was left. I broke a brand new (rented) pilot bearing removal tool. Ended up using the dremel to cut it in half and get it outta there.
Not real sure about the clutch, but I wouldnt take any chances, you dont wanna pull that thing again once its in

.
Keep up the good work and pictures coming!

yodasfro · Post by **yodasfro** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:56 pm

Do I see RTV red on your oil pan gasket? Not good that stufff is no good. I would also like to know how to get the pilot bearing out too. :-D

Matt · Post by **Matt** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:53 pm

I used a Small chisel to cut the outer casing open when I had to do mine. Then you just have to get something in ther to pull it out. I can get oem parts really inexpensively through Halsey Import Parts in Portland. Their prices are usually better than or equal to all the internet prices I've seen esp. when you include shipping.

I'd replace the clutch. Are you using the 200 flywheel? A 4kq clutch won't hold a 20vt for long. Especially with a lightened flywheel...

jretal · Post by **jretal** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:18 am

Matt wrote:I used a Small chisel to cut the outer casing open when I had to do mine. Then you just have to get something in ther to pull it out. I can get oem parts really inexpensively through Halsey Import Parts in Portland. Their prices are usually better than or equal to all the internet prices I've seen esp. when you include shipping.

I'd replace the clutch. Are you using the 200 flywheel? A 4kq clutch won't hold a 20vt for long. Especially with a lightened flywheel...

Yeah, I was figuring I'd do a lil chiseling to get that puppy out, thanks for the advice. How tight are those things generally in there?

I'm gonna use a 200 flyweel, yes. This was the 200 clutch setup (flywheel, clutch, pressure plate) that was in the car already, so it's a stock 200 part, not 4kq clutch. I was thinking of just sticking with a stock sachs setup for the clutch though...

Veeman · Post by **Veeman** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:35 am

For the pilot bearing, I thought there was a puller made for that, but I've used a slide hammer with a hook on one end and also the "hydraulic" method.

Sounds odd, but if you take a punch/dowel the right diameter (I actually used an old AA maglight...same size!) pack the hole with axle grease, position the punch right in the hole and then give it a good hard smack, it might come out. The pressure of the impact forces the grease into the hole and displaces the bearing. I've done it twice like that, but I've also had to resort to the chisel. Yours is damaged, so your results might vary...

jretal · Post by **jretal** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:15 am

Veeman wrote:For the pilot bearing, I thought there was a puller made for that, but I've used a slide hammer with a hook on one end and also the "hydraulic" method.

Sounds odd, but if you take a punch/dowel the right diameter (I actually used an old AA maglight...same size!) pack the hole with axle grease, position the punch right in the hole and then give it a good hard smack, it might come out. The pressure of the impact forces the grease into the hole and displaces the bearing. I've done it twice like that, but I've also had to resort to the chisel. Yours is damaged, so your results might vary...

Yeah I've heard of that trick, as well as the bar of soap trick... my question to you though is, how did the maglight fend getting hammered like that :wtf:

Veeman · Post by **Veeman** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:35 am

It was already junk (the batteries exploded inside it), so it was more junk afterwards... A dowel would do the same...

jretal · Post by **jretal** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:44 am

So I'm just going to put this lil update in now... mesh my threads together if you will.

Pulled the head on the motor and found that somehow, the PO managed to melt the #3 JE Piston. So now I have a worthless car in my driveway (donor), worthless car in my garage (engineless 4000), and a worthless motor on my engine stand... with a $hit ton of extras on it. I mean, the extras alone are worth as much or more than I paid for the car I'm sure... but it's still a major buzz kill for sure.

here's a link and pix just cuz I seem to like to look at gorey pictures... :bashtard:

http://www.motorgeek.com/phpBB2/viewtop ... 682#138126

So I'm at a cross roads right now. I have dropped $$ on a car that I was planning on turning around and dropping its motor directly into my 4000 w/o having to mess with bearings or anything... now I'm at a different point. I'm looking for options that might not be so obscenely expensive. I might decide to just toss the motor, part out hte rest of the car to recoupe $$ and pick up a used MC1 shortblock and be done with it. I'll steal the ARP hardware from this motor, but other than that... not sure what else to do :(

We'll see what ends up happening, so stay tuned! Right now I'm glad I'm leaving town for a week and heading to the track on monday and tues... just so I don't have to look at any of this $hit piled up around my house at the moment :( :x